It's important to learn your future spouse's opinions and ideas on things that will affect your future. People often mention religion and politics, but just under those are the subject of children.
Redditor orange_you_glad123 found out just before her wedding about her fiancé's opinion of her kids and she called off the wedding over it. The original poster (OP) then questioned her decision.
To figure out if she was right or wrong, she decided to ask the "Am I the A**hole" (AITA) subReddit about her situation.
OP felt she had to call off the wedding.
"AITA For Calling Off My Wedding Because My Fiancé Doesn't Want My Kids There?"
But was it the right call?
"I (38F(emale)) was recently proposed to by my fiancé Carlos (40M(ale)). We have been planning our wedding for 4 months, and our big day was supposed to be in three weeks time. "
"Just over a week ago, I saw on our guest list that my kids, Madison (18F), my son Ethan (15M) and my youngest Isabella (10F) were not on the guest list."
"I immediately confronted my soon to be husband, and he simply stated that it was a [no kids] wedding, which we had never talked about or agreed to."
"As you can imagine I was annoyed and asked him what in the world he was talking about."
"I had been under the impression that my kids were allowed to come, and that my ex-husband would be dropping them off."
"I and he are close still, but understandably he isn't coming to our wedding as we all agreed it would be awkward."
"As it turned out everyone was aware of this, including my parents and bridesmaids."
"They had all assumed I was the one who decided this, which explained why they had been acting rather distant from me lately, especially my sister, who was my maid of honor, who was salty that she couldn't bring her kids."
"He said he thought I knew, which was a reason I refused to accept."
"I asked him why he wanted no kids, and he explained to me that kids are apparently annoying, and he didn't think they would be comfortable at the after-party, where there would be a lot of drinking, even though I don't even drink."
"I explained to him, slowly, that my eldest was an adult, who is legally able to drink, so she'd be fine, and that my youngest two were only coming to the lunch, not the dinner."
"He then complained that they were immature still and that he wanted to feel comfortable with me without 'judgement from my kids.'"
What did the children think about all of this?
"I went to speak to my kids, and when they heard my fiancé didn't want them to come, they got very upset, especially Maddie."
"She claimed that since she wasn't even a child she should be allowed to come, and at the lunch it's not like my husband and I are going to be expected to look after them, which is what she could be doing if it would allow them to come."
"I ended up saying all this to my husband, but still he wanted no kids, there, and even went as far as to say that if it were up to him there would be no kids in our relationship."
"I was so confused."
"I knew he didn't exactly have a bond with the kids, but not even wanting them was a step over the line for me."
"We got into a large argument, and he said our marriage wasn't about my kids, but our shared love for each other, and if I couldn't see that then I wasn't being reasonable, and should rethink my actions towards him."
"In frustration, I told him that my kids are more important to me than he would ever be, and that if they weren't there, I wouldn't be either. He said fine, so I yelled at him the wedding was off."
"His family is annoyed at me as they flew all the way over to see this wedding, and most people are calling me selfish and an a**hole."
"Am I the a**hole in this situation?"
On Reddit, the users of the board judged OP's choices, both about the wedding and fiancé, by including one of the following in their response:
- NTA – Not the A**hole
- YTA – You're the A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everybody Sucks Here
It was easy for the board to agree that OP was NTA for canceling the wedding.
Her kids are an important part of her life, and if her future husband couldn't get behind that, then he shouldn't be her husband.
OP has nothing to be ashamed of.
"NTA"
"People who don't want kids should not date or marry people with kids. You did the right thing, the guy is a massive AH."
"You don't have to marry a lying butt just because someone already flew to see the wedding three weeks before the actual wedding." - tatasz
"Seriously, dude let slip 'If it were up to him there would be no kids in our relationship.'... yeah, you get your wish buddy. No more kids... because no more relationship."
"I'm baffled how things got this far before OP discovered this, but now that she has, it's time to run, not walk, away." - Dexion1619
"NTA."
"Everything is wrong about what he did. Not only did he lie, but he also make it look like it was your decision."
"I get him no wanting kids but he's in a relationship with someone who has kids and he can't just erase them."
"I hope that you calling off the wedding means also you breaking up because it's not fair for your kids to be living with someone who despises them that much." - Primary-Criticism929
"NTA He's entering into a marriage with someone with kids. Does he think they're just going to disappear once you're married? "
"He's clearly demonstrating exactly what he thinks of your kids (negatively) and if that's something you dislike (which it should be IMO) then you're perfectly within reason to call it off."
"Even ignoring that, he's basically gaslighting you by saying he thought you already knew."
"Ignore those people, or if they have kids, ask them how they'd feel if their kids couldn't come to their own wedding." - Inspector-birdie
However, other commenters were concerned about OP's relationship before this incident.
While it's great to learn the truth before she marries him, how did OP not talk with her future husband about her children in the first place?
This should have been a conversation long before discussing marriage.
"He has isolated you so well that you didn't knew that YOUR OWN WEDDING was child free. And your own family didn't think to even talk to you assuming he is speaking for both of you."
"He really doesn't want children there & has made his opinion about their relevance in his relationship with you very clear."
"Girl RUN. Very far & fast. This man is not just raising but waving Red flags 🚩🚩🚩🚩."
"NTA" - IshaDragonheart010
"NTA for your stance on the wedding, but ESH for overlooking that this guy 'didn't exactly have a bond' with your kids before jumping to marriage."
"For the 18 year old and to some extent the 15 year old, they're old enough that I could understand not wanting to demand a fatherly relationship, especially while their dad is still in the picture."
"But for the 10 year old? She's still little and a father figure should have been vetted more carefully."
"Be glad this guy showed his true colors before you were fully locked in." - crockofpot
"NTA for not marrying him."
"But there has got to be some epic failures of communication everywhere for this to happen. You planned this wedding and never talked about the kids having a role?"
"Even general conversations like 'Madison, Isabella, and I are going shopping today. They are so excited to buy dresses for the wedding.'"
"Never looked at invitations? Did the invite explicitly say 'child free'? Or were no one's kids' names on the invites."
"Because I feel like I've seen so many posts here of misunderstandings where just the parents names are on the invite, I'm surprised your sister or anyone didn't ask for clarification if it was the latter."
"Have you talked about your kids in general for your future? If he doesn't even want them at the wedding, I can't imagine he'll be that supportive of them elsewhere."
"Financial support, going to extracurriculars, vacations, etc. Would he spend your entire future trying to fight to do the absolute bare legal minimum and try to convince you to go on vacations or date nights or whatever and not spend any time with your kids?"
"Definitely making the right decision not marrying this guy. But I'd take a long long, and have a conversation with your kids, about what the time you've been dating him looked like." - Usrname52
"NTA—you would be the AH if you do marry him. What kind of messed up life, do you have to have for you to put a man in front of your babies?"
"There is no excuse he could have come up with on why your kids shouldn't be there as it is a momentous occasion for YOU. Your kids are number one as they will always have your back when sh*t hits the fan."
"Will he? Doubtful as he has just shown his true colours by excluding your kids." - Ksire05
"NTA. You are under no obligation to marry your fiancé just because of other people's opinions on this matter. This is a personal matter in your immediate family."
"While I always say both the bride and groom have equal say in the wedding planning it sounds as though he's making a lot of decisions for himself and not considering your feelings or thoughts at all."
"I think you definitely need this time to reflect on what your marriage to this man will be like in future as well."
"I personally don't know if I could forgive a partner of mine openly pushing my children away from me and causing issues for my entire family." - mcmimi83
"NTA It is so refreshing to find someone who is willing to be a responsible parent. Good for you!!!!!"
"Your children deserve to live in a home where they feel welcome and valued. Carlos has told you quite clearly that they will be neither in any home with him."
"You dodged a bullet here."
"His family can kick rocks. If anyone doesn't see that you MUST protect your children, they can kick rocks too." - Pretend_Green9127
"NTA. If your partner doesn't want your kids, this will ALWAYS be a problem! I know a few women who never wanted to have children who have long term relationships or marriages with men who have children."
"They love their partner's children and include them in family gatherings. It would blow your guy's mind to know that some people include ex's and their spouses in their lives especially for kid centered celebrations."
"I am sorry you chose a bad egg. Thinking of Veruca Salt in Willy Wonka."
"Dump him! Hopefully on incinerator day." - iammeallthetime
"NTA. Be grateful you found all this out before you married him. There are red flags everywhere here."
"Why weren't you more involved with your own wedding? Why did Carlos feel like he had the right to make a decision for you, about your family, without even consulting you?"
"Your kids should be more important to you than he would ever be. Good for you for saying that."
"Don't marry him." - Abject_Researcher_12
It sounds like OP made the right call at the last minute, but there's more about her dating style that should probably be questioned.
If she wants to make sure her future spouse likes her kids, she should also check in with her kids about her future spouse.
And if her family seems upset about wedding planning, maybe a quick question as to why would have cleared this up sooner.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp