When it comes to divorce, you might think parents would want their siblings to do everything possible to make the transition easier for their children, including maintaining a cordial relationship with their ex, right?
Wrong.
One father felt strongly about his sister maintaining a relationship with his ex after they split.
Redditor FerretHuge9560 wanted to discuss her experience and get some feedback, so naturally, she came to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subreddit.
She asked:
"AITA for keeping a relationship with my brother's ex-wife when they have two kids together?"
The Original Poster (OP) explained:
"My brother was married to his wife for 14 years and they have two boys together (10 and 12)."
"Their marriage struggled a lot, but they made it last for that long."
"I became super close with his wife and she was a wonderful wife and mother to him."
"I know for a fact my brother cheated on her in the past even though he won't admit it to me."
"I'm also 99% sure he left his wife for his current G[irl]F[riend] although he won't admit that either."
"The divorce has been nasty and restraining orders against him have been in place and everything."
"They can only speak about the boys."
"Recently myself (aunt of the boys) and my mother (grandmother of the boys) made plans to get together with the children and my brother's ex-wife."
"These plans included staying the night at our house because they live out of town."
"My brother found out and blew up, and was super pissed off, but we were firm that this was not fair for the children and the kids deserve to see everyone get along for their sake."
"My brother talks s**t about their mother often, even in front of them, and we always vowed not to take sides for the sake of the kids."
"Of course, everything escalated."
"Our other sibling called me basically telling me we were terrible, how it was selfish to do this to our brother and how dare we pick the ex over family."
"Basically I was told we were pieces of sh*t for choosing the children over everything else and neither of my siblings see it as compassion for the kids."
"At this point, the family is split and my brother wants nothing to do with us and neither do my other siblings apparently."
"Should we not have any sort of relationship with her?"
"In my mind, it's best for the kids to see each side of the family get along and not hate each other."
"The divorce has been very traumatizing for both of them."
The OP was left to wonder:
"AITA for this letting my brother's ex-wife stay at our house with the kids?"
Redditors shared their thoughts on this matter and weighed some options to the question AITA:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Many Redditors declared that OP was NOT the A**hole.
"NTA. Your brother can't claim any moral high ground, past or present, and he's actively engaging in parental alienation by badmouthing his ex in front of their kids."
"You and your mother being neutral for the benefit of the kids is what should be happening, rather than putting the kids in the middle of hostilities."
"Document as much as you can for the inevitable custody hearing, your S[ister]-I[n]-L[aw] needs all the support she can get." ~ lemon_charlie
"100% agree. NTA."
"It sounds quite immature."
"You guys are doing the right thing."
"Let the kids see functionality between you guys."
'Hopefully, the rest will come around."
"I vote for the children to come first."
Also, just because they broke up, it should not mean taking sides!
"Again, super immature."
"I have friends they were married and split up, then remarried."
"They literally ALL vacation together!"
"The original couple had something like six kids together."
"And I've heard the argument of how strange it seems to be to onlookers, but I stood by, it's probably the best thing they could do for the kids!"
"100% functional split family if that makes sense."
"Stand your ground for the children."
"Like I said they should come around at some point, it would be the mature thing to do." ~ lisserpisser
"Exactly this."
"Relationships might end, but the responsibility to support the emotional well-being of the kids doesn't."
"Prioritizing them and maintaining a sense of stability and love from both sides of the family is what truly matters."
"You're absolutely right!!!"
"Staying present for them is the kindest and most mature choice anyone could make." ~ TwinkleRosyCharm
"NTA. Your mom and you need to keep the relationship with his ex because at the rate he's going he'll lose visitation with the kids."
"You don't want never to see your nephews again."
"Those who don't see that he was a crappy husband and is being an even crappier co-parent."
"Can mind their own business!!" ~ CallingThatBS
"You are NTA."
"He absolutely is."
"I had something similar with my ex."
"I left him when I was pregnant with our youngest."
"His parents lived 300 miles away and were disabled and sick."
"They could just as easily visit me, as I could them."
"When they visited, it was usually for a day or overnight."
"When I visited, it was usually for a weekend (single parent going to school and working)."
"I told them that when I left my ex, it was important that they still be able to see the grandkids."
"I wouldn't let him have the kids until I was ordered to by a judge due to narcissism and abuse and he would just take to oldest out of school whenever he wanted and return him whenever he wanted until I gave him court papers."
"I told them (parents) that I would be happy to drop them (not baby) off for the weekend (baby for a few hours at a time until she was older), and I would stay in a hotel to lessen conflict."
"They said 'The hell you will! You will stay in this house. We love you, and that's his problem that he needs to figure out.'"
"He found out and gave them an ultimatum, me or him."
"M[other]-I[n]-L[aw] literally just said no and hung up (I was there for that phone call)."
"He threatened again, followed up with 'I'm going to get evicted and need you to give me money.'"
"His dad laughed and hung up."
"He eventually got over it when he realized they were not going to give him any money with that kind of attitude."
"I loved his mother."
"She was a second mother to me, and my parents loved her as well."
"We could've cared less about his dad."
"Sadly, they both died a year later due to illness."
"Luckily, he's much better now."
"He's still an AH, but better than before." ~ Personal_Assist4585
"NTA and I would go low contact with your brother.'
"He sounds like a huge selfish a**." ~ GollumTrees
"NTA. Your brother is a real piece of work."
"You're mom must be really disappointed in him." ~ CF_FI_Fly
"You're NTA."
"You're acting like a reasonable adult and letting the kids know there are people who won't try to force them to choose sides in their family." ~ Dittoheadforever
"OP: the rest of your family sucks."
"Like so much. Immature and childish to the core."
"You and your mother are best left to your own lives and cut out the toxicity. NTA." ~ Maleficent_Mistake50
"NTA. My sister divorced her husband and they have a child together."
"He's still Uncle X because he's her dad."
"And sometimes re-custody the best way to see her is to also hang with him." ~ Peskypoints
"You are the type of relatives that children deserve."
"You are providing an island of stability in the turbulent seas of their parent's issues."
"They are going to love you for caring and will not forget the joys you let them have during these times."
"Siblings do not dictate who you can love."
"Ignore them." ~ Daleaturner
"NTA. My brother did this to his kids."
"His ex did treat him poorly, but he was more focused on being right than he was on protecting his kids from his anger."
"I was always nice to their mother (not friends, but kind and friendly) and I was always there for his children."
"Years later he wasn't invited to his youngest daughter's wedding and he told me if I went he'd never talk to me again."
"Watching her walk down the aisle, I realized that no matter what I love his kids and how sad it was that he wanted to make her special day less special."
"I call the kids (now adults) out when they are wrong."
"I've stopped calling out my brother because of fruitless exercise."
"I realized my relationship with his kids is more important to me than a relationship with him."
"Be there for the kids and be kind to everyone—but don't take bullshit from anyone."
"You won't regret it." ~ Kixel11
"NTA. Your brother is not a good person."
"The fact he's treating the Mother of his children the way he is and is saying the things he says shows he's not a good parent either."
"You guys need to pick a side and it should be his ex and the kids."
"None of them did anything wrong and they need to know they are loved and supported by your side of the family."
"I don't know why you would even bother with your brother and his side piece at this point."
"He really sounds awful and a restraining order?"
"He also sounds unhinged and dangerous." ~ Hefty-Equivalent6581
"NTA, those kids are still your family so it makes sense to have a decent relationship with their mother."
"I'm kinda side eyeing your brother and wondering what kind of harassing, abusive **it he pulled to get a restraining order placed on him though." ~ Agreeable-animal
"NTA. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree, except for your brother."
"It fell, rolled down the hill to a river, river washed it down to the ocean, and it ended up in that pile of sea trash where the rest of his siblings are... ex over family?"
"Who do they think the nephews are?"
"Enjoy your view from the tree." ~ Cheeseburgers_
"NTA in any way!!!"
"You and your mother are to be commended for acting like mature, loving family members to his kids."
"He should be ashamed of himself." ~ Aromatic_Recipe1749
"NTA. At the end of the day, those kids are family and that's their mom."
"If your brothers cannot handle the idea of you communicating or seeing them, that's their problem. I'm sorry you are going through this."
"It sucks when you realize your family members are immature idiots." ~ jesswick79
"If your brother had restraining orders against him, you are showing him great courtesy and family loyalty by even speaking to him or allowing him in your presence."
"Restraining orders aren't handed out all like candy just because people ask, so he obviously did something bad.'
"This disqualifies him from judging you for being on speaking terms with his ex."
"He should be grateful to you." ~ Insomnia_and_Coffee
"NTA in so many ways."
"Brother may just end up with a new court order of parental alienation."
"I'm sorry your other siblings don't understand that the kids/grandkids are innocent."
"I'd be tempted to go nuclear on brother though."
"If you can't be civil about us maintaining a relationship with your kids then don't let the door hit ya on the way out." ~ Federal-Ferret-970
"NTA!!! In fact I commend you for rising above the toxic environment and putting the children first."
"Your nieces and nephews need to know stability and support regardless of parent's conflict!!!"
"Your brother and siblings are so wrong!!!"
"Selfish selfish selfish!!!"
"My parents split when I was 8—my mother's side of the family chose her over us kids!!!"
"We were no longer family because of the split!!!"
"One moment we had cousins and family, holidays and traditions, and then nothing!!!"
"It was so very hurtful and damaging to us kids!!!"
"OP keep putting the kids first!!"
"They need the love!!!" ~ lifevisions
"NTA; you are doing everything right, OP."
"I could understand your brother being upset about a relationship with the ex if she had been the one to cheat or if she had been abusing him or something."
"But it sounds like he was a large part of the problem in the marriage and is now throwing a hissy fit because he's not getting his way." ~ goatcheeseisyummy
"NTA. What kind of a-hole tried to punish his own kids by cutting them off from family that loves them?"
"Your brother is garbage."
"They don't hand out restraining orders just for being a big meanie to your ex."
"And given his behavior, I'd let your ex-SIL know he's attempting to alienate the affections of her children."
"Custody should take that into account."
"I maintained a friendly relationship with my sister's ex for the kids, too."
"We're going to be family for the rest of their lives."
"Personally, I'd choose your ex-SIL instead of that jerk anyway." ~ RedneckDebutante
"My brother knows that if his marriage ever goes sideways, my SIL is getting us in the divorce."
"NTA. You and your mom are putting the kids first, as it should be."
"Your brother's moral compass is broken if he can't see that and appreciate it." ~ Illustrious-Onion329
OP returned with an Update...
"I want to thank everyone who commented on this and gave me reassurance that we did the right thing here and severing ties with my brother isn't the end of the world."
"I'm so disappointed at the behavior of him and our other sibling."
"Unfortunately, they will only associate themselves with people that are on their side 100% of the time and support them to the bitter end."
"This happens with all of their friendships and everything."
"However, I'm the person that will tell you when I feel like you may be leaning on the wrong side a bit, and urge people to see the other point of view, and it's always out of pure love."
"Regardless, it's okay if we're the bad guys here."
"Children always come first no matter what, and I'll be their ride or die forever."
"One day the kids will figure it out and I hope when that happens, they know we were always on their side because they matter the most."
Reddit is with you, and the kids, OP.
You're doing the right thing.
These children are in desperate need of love and stability.
Your siblings are being unfair by prioritizing their own feelings over the welfare of the children.
You keep being the ride-or-die they need.
Good luck.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp