Each person carries with them their own set of beliefs, and they'll be as varied as the person who carries them.
But sometimes their beliefs involve how someone else lives their life, including their thoughts on someone's sexual orientation, pointed out the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITA) subReddit.
Redditor ConcernEquivalent744 looked on as his brother and sister-in-law pushed their teen daughter from their lives, because her coming out as a lesbian didn't mesh with their religious beliefs.
When they later tried to reunite, but with conditions, the Original Poster (OP) had some thoughts on the matter.
He asked the sub:
"AITA for saying that my relationship with my son is more important than my brother's relationship with his daughter?"
The OP had a positive relationship with his niece.
"My (43 Male) brother (43 Male) has a difficult relationship with his daughter (25 Female)."
"His wife comes from a conservative Christian church, and when they got married after he got her pregnant, he pretty much drank their flavor aid and became a practicing Christian."
"Lo and behold, when she was 17 years old, his daughter comes out as a lesbian."
"This was an awkward situation, to say the least, and it ended with her living with our parents for the rest of high school, and our parents paying for her college."
"I tried to be a safe space for her, as well, because she's a great kid with a bright future ahead of her, and her now-fiancée is basically already my other niece."
The OP's brother recently attempted to improve on their relationship with the OP's niece.
"In the past two years, he and his wife have tried to reconnect with her."
"They've been attending family therapy, and seem to have made some progress in getting over their dumb fairy-tale hangups over her being gay."
"A year and a half ago, my son (16 Male) also came out. My wife and I told him straight away that our lives are better because he's in our lives, and that who he loves will only ever matter to us as far as making sure that the person he loves makes him happy."
Unlike the OP, his brother and sister-in-law still had reservations.
"My niece is getting married in six months, and she really wants her parents to be there."
"They, however, still say that this is a 'mental block' for them."
"They've actually asked her to move the wedding back so they have more time to adjust to the idea of her being married to another woman, though she came out eight years ago."
"When she told me this, I told her straight up that that's bulls**t and if my brother and sister-in-law are too wrapped up in their own Jesussy Christiness to watch their daughter marry the love of her life, I'll walk her down the aisle instead."
This led to a family argument.
"My brother has... taken issue with this. He showed up in a huff and demanded to know where I got off undermining his relationship with his daughter, why I would try to push him out, he has the right to 'give' his own daughter 'away,' etc."
"I reminded him that my son is gay, too, and I need to make sure that he knows he's safe with us, and I'd be doing a pretty p**s-poor job of doing that if I took my brain-dead homophobe brother's side over my niece's."
"Here's where I may be the a**hole: he asked if I was saying that my relationship with my son is more important than his relationship with his daughter."
"I responded, 'Yes, because I don't have to see a f**king therapist to teach me how to love my own f**king kid.'"
The OP felt conflicted after that.
"My wife tells me I 'probably could have handled that better.'"
"My parents are p**sed at me and say that I need to be more understanding of my brother and my sister-in-law because they have a lot to unlearn that I don't."
"My sister (51 Female) says that I need to judge less and listen more."
"And apparently, courtesy of my son, I've become a meme in the GSA Club (Genders and Sexualities Alliance Club) at the high school where my kids go to."
"AITA?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
Some thought the OP was wrong to meddle.
"YTA. To support your son, you don't have to be the champion of everyone in this world. He is your own brother. You should not interfere in his relationship with his daughter no matter how bad it is."
"How would you feel if your brother went behind your back to deal with your son? If he doesn't accept his daughter, then that's their issue. Let her get married whenever she wants and you may attend as a guest."
"But to actually egg her on to do it, to spew comments against her dad, and to volunteer to walk her down the aisle is a bit too much. You crossed a boundary here. You should have acted as a neutral party."
"To sum it up, let her decide alone when and how she wants to get married and you can attend it as her aunt/uncle. That's it!" - Winter-Ladder-3591
"YTA. While it's great that you accepted your niece, that doesn't mean that her parents love her any less than you love your son. To say that to your brother was hurtful and damn cruel. Your older sister is right. Listen more and judge less." - cutipatutie
"ESH. Yes, your brother and SIL are morons for their attitude, but that doesn't mean that their relationship with their daughter is any less valid than your relationship with your son. Kudos for being supportive of both kids, but let brother and SIL come to their own understanding of their daughter and her future wife."
"If they don't attend the wedding, feel free to walk her down the aisle. If they do come, that's his job unless she decides he can't or she doesn't want to." - sharirogers
"ESH. Your brother more than you, but you know (and your wife knows) that was you said was unnecessary. Just because they are seeing a therapist to work on their issues doesn't make their relationship less important."
"Also, that comment could very well turn your brother away from the idea of therapy. It reads as you bashing therapy honestly. It sucks that it is needed. It sucks that he still can't accept his daughter fully."
"But don't you think encouraging the thing that is allowing him to build this relationship back up is more important than getting the last word?"
"Also, his daughter might not like what you said either. A relationship goes two ways. Not just one. If your brother's relationship with his daughter is less important than your relationship with your son... then his daughter's side of that relationship is also less important."
"Please don't take me listing out the reason for you being an AH as me saying you are more of one. Your brother is a massive AH and it is so obvious why that it is that I don't think it needs to be spelled out."
"Also, thank you for taking your niece under her wing and showing her you love her. Let her make her own decision about the aisle. You've offered to walk her, which I thought was super sweet, but definitely don't push it or make her feel bad if she does have her father walk her down. Best of luck OP!" - Critical-Musician630
"You probably could have handled that better."
"Tell them, 'No, my relationship with my child is not more important than your relationship with yours. It is, however, more important that your daughter, and my son, feels loved and supported in their lives. That is more important than your religious choice, to me, and if it needs to be me that shows her how important she is and not you.'"
"And then add, 'I'm sorry you feel the repercussions of your religious decision. I will not back away from her and hurt her even more than you already have just for your convenience. I will not show my son that is okay for anyone to do, not you to your daughter, nor anyone else.'"
"I have a hard time even saying ESH, because your brother is frankly an a**. But yes, you should have handled that better (easy to say back seat driving and it pains me to omit it out) so a reluctant ESH." - Intrepid-Potential60
But others applauded the OP for showing his niece his support.
"NTA."
"I mean, a more honest answer is that the two relationships aren't at odds with one another, but I don't blame you for not pointing that out in the heat of the moment. Your wife is right that you could've handled it better, but your brother could've as well."
"An E-S-H could technically be issued here because nobody is acting like the best version of themselves, but you being snide to your brother is nowhere near as a**holish as him trying to hit the snooze button on his own kid's same-sex wedding."
"If you care about preserving the relationship with your brother, then you should be more diplomatic in how you talk to him. Even though he's being an a-hole. It should not affect how supportive you are to your niece, act exactly the same around her as you have been."
"If you don't care about preserving that relationship, carry on as you like." - savetheclocktower
"OP handled this perfectly. Bravo, OP!"
"The brother doesn't need kid gloves. Kid gloves don't work on people like that. Maybe this verbal slap in the face that holds up a mirror to their actual repugnant behavior is actually what the brother needs."
"Or maybe he will never adjust, and the daughter will continue to rely on her uncle. Either way, both kids know OP has their back. Good." - False-Explanation702
"Most of the time I don't advocate for escalation, but frankly, I think OP handled this like a f**king champ. I know that the brother and SIL are victims in a way because it's how the SIL was raised and the brother got sucked in."
"But we're in 2023. If you STILL can't fathom the idea of two women getting married, then that's your problem. Frankly, I think OP's line of 'I don't need to see a therapist to teach me how to love my own kid' is f**king gold." - TheSecondEikonOfFire
"They kicked their own 17-year-old daughter out for her sexuality. Sure, it's hard to be someone raised in a conservative religion that takes over your life (and I would know, I was raised in one) but it is NO EXCUSE for being a cruel and bigoted adult." - Engineer-Huge
"I was raised in a very conservative religion (Jehovah's Witness). And yes it was my whole life. My husband converted after we were married."
"My son came out as gay when he was 16. Did my husband and I deal with an internal struggle? Yes, it's hard to let go of indoctrination."
"But that was never an issue that I made my son's problem. It was our issue. Not his. We were still loving and accepting towards him while we dealt with our hang-ups as adults. We recognized that our son was not able to change who he is sexually attracted to, so it was us who had to change how we viewed the situation."
"They have had years to do this and therapy. They have no excuse. NTA, OP." - A-typ-self
Everyone in the subReddit could agree that parents should love their children unconditionally, but they were less unified on the OP's approach to pointing this out. Some were grateful that the OP had unconditionally sided with his niece and son, but others thought it was time to focus on the son and for the OP to step aside for the parents to take care of his niece.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp