The honeymoon tradition is believed to have originated in Europe in the 5th century, but may have a very dark past.
Some historians think it is related to the practice of marriage by capture, where a man would kidnap a woman for a full moon cycle to try to get her pregnant. Once a woman was pregnant, the forced marriage couldn't be annulled by the woman's family.
But other scholars say "honeymoon" is a reference to the practice of 5th century wedding guests giving newly married couples a month's worth of mead—a fermented honey beverage—which was believed to boost fertility.
The lunar month was also thought to bring good luck. During the first lunar cycle of marriage, the couple was expected to spend time together filled with joy, fertility, and sweetness.
Maybe both are true, maybe neither is.
Regardless of its origin, honeymoons of today are usually a trip taken by the newlyweds to an often exotic location.
A soon-to-be bride looking forward to her own honeymoon turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback after finding out she'd be getting some unexpected guests on her trip.
Impressive-Garlic488 asked:
"AITA for demanding that my fiancé's parents change their plans to have a vacation at the same place as our honeymoon?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"My fiancé and I have our wedding coming up in April. We had brainstormed for a while on where best to spend our honeymoon."
"We went over the more popular and well-known places, but then landed on a more offbeat destination that I felt would truly be a great place for us to start our life as a married couple. I've been looking forward to it just being the two of us."
"He'd told me back then that he hadn't told his parents yet that we'd confirmed our honeymoon destination. But he didn't tell me why, otherwise I'd have followed his cue."
"Then when his mother asked me later in a call, I told her where we were going and hyped up the place. I so regret that now."
"l know he has a really hectic work schedule and we were going to make the most out of this."
"A couple of days ago, he told me that his parents had been impressed by how hyped I was about it and were planning on going there for a vacation too, largely overlapping with our honeymoon dates."
"They're staying at the same hotel as us. There were a couple of bikinis that I had bought for the beach which would definitely be considered tacky to wear in front of in-laws."
"I was livid. They can go any other time, why now?"
"Our honeymoon dates can't be changed really. Like, I'd be OK with that, but I know it wouldn't work for my fiancé. He had to move around some work stuff for us to finally land on these dates."
"A different hotel for us could work, but this is like a coastal area and I really wanted a hotel close to the beach, but I'll start looking for some others, too. This hotel had really good reviews."
"And because it's not a huge city or something, if people want to meet, it's not too inconvenient. Which sucks, because what if they decide they do want to meet? And what if we meet on the beach?
"I'd have to change what I plan on wearing. I'm just really hoping they change their plan, because quite honestly, if I'm the one that has to change plans, I might not end up being a good daughter-in-law."
"He said he had suggested that they change their plans, but his mom said they had taken time off for the wedding too, and it worked well into their plans. Also, that since we're going to be going back to where we live, it'll allow them to maybe see us a few times before we leave."
"I was almost in tears I was so angry. He tried to reassure me saying they had promised it'll be two separate things and they won't be inserting themselves in our honeymoon, they want us to enjoy it, and they'd be doing their own thing."
"I want to believe it, but I know his mom. I like her as a soon-to-be mother-in-law (MIL), but she can be very clingy and routinely laments how far he (and now us) are from them. So I just have a feeling the two plans are not going to be as independent as he thinks they'll be."
"I vented about it to my parents, too. My mom agreed with me that this isn't right. My dad is more on the fence about it, he doesn't think everything is ruined."
"I've demanded my fiancé make them change their plans. He says he asked them to, they promised to do their own thing, what can he do? Tell them he doesn't believe them and call them liars?"
"I messed up here and said if that's what it takes. He got quiet I realized that was too much and sincerely apologized for crossing the line."
"This has been eating me up. I was envisioning a certain type of honeymoon and this happened."
"AITA?"
The OP summed up their situation.
"I'm demanding that my fiancé's parents change their vacation plans that they have promised won't interfere with our honeymoon."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole (NTA).
"NTA. My mother tried the same thing with my brother and my now sister-in-law. I lost my sh*t on her so hard I think she stopped speaking to me for a month."
"I didn't care. It's f*cking outrageous to think you can join a couple on a honeymoon. Just batsh*t crazy." ~ LindaBelchersPickle
"It's batsh*t crazy to book the same hotel, time and destination as your child of their honeymoon. Everyone knows it. So why did they do it in the first place? NTA." ~ NinjaHidingintheOpen
"I'm guessing they didn't expect their future daughter-in-law and son to be ballsy enough to tell them to back off. So inappropriate for them to even consider this as an okay thing to do." ~ Affectionate_Sun_733
"NTA. I would personally change the hotel or stay at a different hotel the dates they're going to be there. Also, a no cell phone policy, so they can't get ahold of you."
"But to be honest, this is a husband problem and not an in-law problem. He should have shut her down point blank at even the suggestion of going to your honeymoon destination at the same time." ~ KoolaidKoll123
"They will constantly be texting as to what your plans are for the day. Where are you going to eat dinner? And then they will be on the same excursions, at the same restaurant, etc..."
"Just tell your fiancé that this is your honeymoon—just you two—not a family vacation, and you want it to be private without in-laws clamoring to be a part of your life that they have no business being involved in."
"I would either change the hotel or pick another destination. If they want to know why, just simply tell them that you are honeymooners and you don't want to see outsiders, friends, in-laws—no one."
"It's your honeymoon, just for the two of you, and no interlopers are allowed. NTA." ~ briomio
The OP provided an update:
"Hi, thank you for the advice in the original post. I thought over this more. I was heartened by the response here, because I thought I was the one being over-the-top about this, but I saw that most people agreed that what they're doing isn't right."
"I really didn't want to change our plans, so I planned to talk to him again, speaking respectfully about his parents, but firm, because last time I had gone over the line a bit which had derailed our conversation."
"We met yesterday after work. I raised the issue with him again. I said that he knows how much I'd been looking forward to our honeymoon. I only plan on having it once, and his parents being there will ruin it for both of us."
"I also said that I didn't want to change anything about it—not the hotel or the destination. It just wasn't fair. He said he doesn't like that they're coming either, but they're giving their word to not interfere."
"But to me it's not about believing them, just that the honeymoon I had in mind is going to get ruined with them around. I told him that this wasn't a trivial annoyance for me, this was actually making me unhappy and I need him to do something about it."
"He said he'll handle it."
"Well, first he told me that knowing his parents (especially his mom), she is going to feel slighted by us. We're going to be living a 4 hour flight away from them, so it's not like we're going to see them too often, but he said he just wanted me to know that was going to happen."
"I said I'm fine with that—probably could've been more tactful, but he found it amusing. He said he'll handle it so I waited."
"Last night he told me his parents were canceling their plan. I asked him how it went, he said it went fine. They said it would be two separate plans, but he told them their plan was becoming a problem, and asked them to change their plan and it would mean a lot to him."
"They hadn't booked travel tickets yet, but they're looking into either getting a refund on their hotel reservations or my fiancé suggested delaying it to some time later in the future."
"They had also asked my fiancé to send pictures of the area, beach, hotel, our room, etc... Which is a bit annoying, not gonna lie, to send pictures while we're still there, but since they've asked, I guess we can make sure to send them some at least."
"I told him I was sorry that he'd been put in this position, but I was so happy about it. I started tearing up too, this had just been bearing on me so heavily, and I was so glad it was back to the way I have it in my mind."
"Also, I know the stress of wedding and work has been bearing on him too, and I didn't like adding this extra stress onto him either."
"He said it was a very short and simple convo with his parents. I thought there'd be a big argument because he said they hadn't been swayed previously."
"They've agreed to cancel it now. They've told my fiancé they will. I've really been looking forward to going there and I'm just going to hold them to their word."
"If they backtrack now or show up unannounced, I'm never going to forgive them."
"My parents were also really happy for me."
"My dad thinks it wouldn't hurt to call my MIL and just apologize for what happened, not in a 'I'm sorry I did this' way, but more of a 'I'm sorry this happened' way. My mom thinks there's no need. My fiancé thinks it's up to me."
"I'm really glad I came here and found out I wasn't overreacting, or I wouldn't have had the confidence to ask for my honeymoon back. Thank you."
The OP later added:
"There won't be any apologies. His parents had asked for pictures from us during our honeymoon."
"I'm not sending sh*t."
"His mom had the audacity to complain to my mom about me."
"How I'm not making an effort to become a part of the family, how she was sure I must've been the reason my fiancé made them cancel their vacation, how unfortunate it was that I was so hostile to them, and how I didn't understand the importance of relationships."
"My mom stood up for me and said I have no duty to anyone except my soon-to-be husband."
"I take back whatever I might have said about me generally liking my soon-to-be MIL. I'm done."
"They've canceled their vacation, that's what I wanted, I'm going to smile for the family pictures at the wedding, and once we fly out, I'm done with her."
"She's not getting any apologies. She'll be lucky if I ever visit her now."
"After she talked sh*t about me to my mom, I spoke to my fiancé and told him I was done with her. He agreed that what she did was uncalled for."
"He said he was OK with me going no contact (NC) for now at least, until her attitude toward me changes."
"But I don't know how he feels about him going NC too because, honestly, I didn't ask him. He's her son, and I figured asking him to go NC too might be asking too much of him."
"I think if we were living close to her and seeing her regularly, I would be very wary of how our relationship would play out. But we're going to be living far from her, and he honestly isn't the type who shares everything with her."
Well, alls well that ends well, hopefully.
Fingers crossed that the OP doesn't have any surprises on her honeymoon.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp