Anyone who has known one of those parents who expects everyone else to orbit around their child can attest to how frustrating these parents can be.
Not only do they expect to be involved in all the same social scenes that they used to be, but they refuse to accept accountability whenever their child acts up, even if they haven't raised them to know better, cringed the members of the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITAH) subReddit.
Redditor Ok-Point-6480 was preparing for their wedding and knew that inviting one of their mom friends and her four-year-old son was going to be a problem, not because her son was on the spectrum, but because she had not taught him anything about being polite in public.
Feeling that inviting them would cause a scene at their wedding, the Original Poster (OP) began to ponder how to broach the issue with their mom friend.
They asked the sub:
"AITAH for asking a friend if she understands wedding courtesy or else she can't bring her four-year-old son (who is on the spectrum) to my wedding?"
The OP appreciated their friends who were parents who held their kids accountable.
"I feel like there are two types of parents in this world. The first type of parent goes, 'I won't be raising a little s**t.' The second type of parent goes, 'The world should revolve around my perfect angel.'"
"I myself have Autism and so do most of the people I socialize with, and this goes double for us."
"And I have noticed a huge difference in outcomes for kids who were raised by the first type of parent vs. the second type."
"The vast majority of my friends with kids are the first type of parents. That's why I have absolutely no problem with having kids at my wedding. Because I know they will prevent their kids from being disruptive during the serious parts, and not just let them loose as hellions during the fun parts."
The OP had become frustrated with their mom friend who did not raise her son well.
"I have ONE friend who is the second type of parent, and I really feel for her son because he is going to face a lot of social rejection when he gets older. He is probably one of the most spoiled, inconsiderate children I have ever met, but it's really not his fault."
"My friend his mother is adamant that he should NEVER have to be considerate of others, and all adults and children should just accommodate all his whims and be 'understanding.'"
"So I don't hold it against him even though he's awful to be around, because it's truly not his fault. Nobody has ever taught him how to act in any form of interpersonal interaction."
The OP contemplated not invited the mom and son to their wedding because of this.
"That being said, I really don't want him at my wedding, but I cringe at the idea of singling my friend out as the only person whose child can't come. And she certainly will want him to come, she doesn't go anywhere without him."
"The problem is I could see her handing him an iPad and having him play games on it at full volume during the entire ceremony and find it outrageous if anyone has an issue with it, because her son 'needs' it and can't tolerate headphones. There are a number of things like that which I could see her doing or allowing."
The OP felt conflicted about how to broach the subject.
"I wanted to broach the subject with her but not be insulting towards her son. The way I approached it was trying to get at whether or not SHE understands wedding etiquette, such as not playing loud videos during the ceremony."
"I just wanted to figure out if there would be any issues, but apparently, this approach made me an a-shole according to her."
"AITAH?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
Some reassured the OP that they were NTA and their friend needed to accept responsibility.
"NTA. She's raising him to have no capacity to process rejection or not being the center of attention, and things are going to get worse if there's any chance of them getting better."
"Kids need to learn how to handle not getting what they want, something negative in the short term giving them the experience to develop resilience and coping strategies (like cooldown, problem solving etc). Instant gratification as a norm is detrimental to emotional development."
"What is your friend's long-term plan for raising her son? Homeschooling because teachers and other students won't understand or meet his specific wants?" - lemon_charlie
"I would go by past behaviour here, and past behaviour shows she doesn't do anything to prevent this. I would not trust her word when it comes to a wedding. Or any important event. If anything, I would want to see some actual change from her before that event to trust her more, and I would make sure she realizes they will be asked to leave if she doesn't manage this properly."
"I don't think there is a way you can discuss this with her that she won't take badly. She seems to think that everyone else has to live with any behaviour from her son, no matter how disruptive it is, or what kind of needs others may have."
"That does not sound like the type of person who will be able to change this for your wedding. It also does not sound like the type of person other will sympathize with, which would make it more likely for them to accommodate her/be understanding." - SweetNothings12
"If she were truly aware of wedding etiquette, she would've reassured OP instead of just getting offended. Sounds like she's used to people tiptoeing around her parenting."
"She's aware of wedding etiquette; she just doesn't think it should apply to her and her son."
"Because he's 'special' and everybody should be 'understanding.' Poor kid. I hate parents like that." - HoldFastO2
"You can tell her what you told us. You don't want him there because of her s**tty parenting, which has resulted in a disruptive child that no one wants to be around and that SHE is setting him up for failure. Autism isn't a let me be an asshole free card. It just means he needs coping mechanisms."
"Put the blame on her and not the child. If she truly loved her child, she would be raising him into a well-adjusted adult." - Mera1506
"Some people are just that obtuse. I had a no-kids wedding. Most people were thrilled to have a night out without the kids. I had two couples decline because of it, which was fine and expected, as they had little ones they didn't want to leave for that long."
"However, I had two people who just didn't get it... My one cousin called and said, 'If my kids can't come, I'm not coming either!' like it was some kind of threat. I said, 'Fine, we'll miss you.' He didn't come and was p**sed about it, not sure what he was expecting."
"The other was my husband's uncle, who planned to bring his then nine-year-old daughter anyway because he was somehow exempt from the no-kids rule. MIL had to set him straight and said, "'You know, brother, no kids also means [niece]. You'll need to make other arrangements for her. She's not invited.'"
"Magically, he ended up making arrangements for her to stay with a friend that weekend instead."
"Some people just don't get it because their world is all about them and their children." - Pascale73
Others agreed and encouraged the OP to be straightforward and honest.
"Sometimes, avoiding being direct actually causes MORE problems than just being direct. Like, no matter what, your friend won't be happy, but that's not your problem; you can't sacrifice your wedding experience to keep one person happy."
"And so it's best to just rip the bandaid off so it doesn't drag out drama, and also doesn't risk insulting her in a different way (implying she doesn't understand etiquette, which she may not, but you created a second problem in addition to not wanting her son to be there)."
"I encourage you to be forthcoming and direct with the people in your life, because while it may seem extremely difficult, and often is, it's generally MUCH easier than any alternative." - whimsical_trash
"I would approach a conversation like this from a place of empathy/experience. Think of a time when you were a kid and you behaved inappropriately, and a stranger (or someone you know who was maybe blunt about it) had something to say about it in public."
"Tell her the story and how it impacted you, how it made you feel about going into certain social situations and maybe not fully understanding the expectations, and just say honestly that you would hate for your wedding to be the place that happens for her child, because you know certain of your guests would absolutely say something less than empathetic if he wasn't behaving appropriately."
"That way, she knows you just want him to be fully equipped to be his best self on the day, and that you're not attacking her, just trying to open a conversation on how to help him behave on the day." - HandinHand123
"NTA. That's a difficult conversation to have."
"So you're trying to avoid having to say outright he can't come by working out whether she understands that the behaviors you mention above are inappropriate at a wedding..."
"Even if she says she understands wedding etiquette, so you think she'll actually manage him properly on the day? If not, then why have the conversation at all?"
"I suspect you're best option is just to say outright her son is not invited (but you'd love to see her) because you've observed he struggles to be quiet and still when necessary."
"If she objects, you just cite examples of him being disruptive (I'm sure you've got loads). And you understand her position that it's tough being autistic, perhaps he can't help it etc etc. But you still want people to be quiet at times during the wedding. That way it's not a criticism, it's an observation." - No-Sea1173
"I would just not invite her. And make sure she knows it's 100% because of her own permissive behaviours and not her son's disruptive ones."
"Don't let her make it about the boy. This is all, 100%, about her and her choices. It's always hard to tell a friend you disagree with her about something so major, but in my experience, the longer you let it go, the harder it is to eventually broach the subject."
"You need to take some responsibility for having allowed this to be the norm. (I'm assuming that this isn't the first time this has happened because if her choices are so egregious that she routinely allows her son to act like this, then it has likely caused problems at many of your mutual events.)"
"She's gotten a good foothold because everyone around her has allowed her to get her way for so long that she now feels entitled (much like her son feels entitled), so telling her he can't come to the wedding was never going to be easy since, I'm assuming you're the first person in your friend group to speak up. You're not the a**hole but you sure made it hard on yourself by letting it go for so long." - KathyOverandOut
"It sounds like she's not going to understand because she doesn't WANT to understand."
"Be blunt. Get it over fast and very, very clearly. You might actually be doing a favor for her kid in the long run. Do it over the phone, or right before you are leaving a get-together."
"Say: 'Friend, I want to tell you something that I know will be hard for you to hear. I will not be inviting you to my wedding, because you allow your son to disrupt events. You are doing him no favors. I don't want to hurt you, but I can't allow you to bring his behavior to my wedding. Ok, I have to go now. We can talk about this later if you want, but my mind is made up."
"Then walk away. If she tries to talk, just say 'later,' and leave."
"If she wants to discuss it later, tell her you will need to see evidence. You need to attend an event with them to see her kid behave quietly at a one-hour event at least a month (or whatever you decide) before your wedding."
"Do not accept her framing of any argument. Don't even reply to her argument. Instead, repeat your mantra. Just tell her your requirement, and ask what event she will invite you to, to show his success at behaving quietly for a one-hour public event."
"If she spams your phone, reply, 'Please invite me to the one-hour public event where I can see he does not disrupt.'"
"And tell your friends. This his 'one-hour no disruption' goal may also become the perfect go-to for everyone else in her life to use as a goal or explanation. Once it is said out loud, it is just a totally clarifying and very reasonable requirement for people who couldn't figure out a reasonable way to address the problem."
"Make that your mantra, because she will argue that's it's everything else. But this requirement is both reasonable and a very easy answer for everyone to understand and point to, while being impossible to pretend about." - sezit
The subReddit understood the importance of inclusion, and they felt terrible for leaving the four-year-old out of an event that he may have been given the proper tools to be socially prepared for.
Because it sounded to the subReddit like the real problem here was the OP's friend, not the friend's child, and how she was being entitled and expecting grace without ever taking accountability, which would only hurt her son's chances at social experiences in the future.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp