It takes very little for "borrowing" to turn into "stealing."
After all, when you seek permission to "borrow" something, it is with the understanding that it will one day be returned.
Should that item never be returned, and the owner did not give their permission for you to keep it, then that item can be justified as being stolen.
And the owner is more than liable for compensation.
Redditor Kind-Yesterday-3237 was furious to discover that their niece not only took some valuable possessions of theirs without permission but also had the audacity to re-sell this item.
Catching their niece red-handed, the original poster (OP) felt there was only one suitable consequence for their niece's actions.
A consequence the OP's sister found way out of line, feeling that their niece was "only a kid".
Wondering if they were being too hard on their niece, the OP took to the subReddit "Am I The A**hole" (AITA), where they asked fellow Redditors:
"AITA for demanding that my niece, or her parents, pay me back for the hundreds of dollars of perfume she stole from me?"
The OP explained why they felt they firmly believed their niece needed to face the consequences of their actions:
"I have a perfume collection that I started when I was a teenager, slinging burritos as my first job."
"I have over 400 bottles at this point. I take great pride in my collection, and I use it."
"I'm also happy to give people decants (samples) of most of my bottles, let them sample a spray or two, give some bottles as gifts, etc."
"What I have a HUGE f*cking issue with is my 17 year old niece coming into my home under the guise of walking my dog, decanting bottles on her own and SELLING THE SAMPLES to her little friends."
"She thinks that because I have so many bottles, I wouldn't notice some missing or getting massive dents in them."
"Well little miss entrepreneur failed to realize that her 'private' Instagram wasn't 'friends only' or whatever and I saw each and every f*cking story with each price and sample she had."
"I tallied that sh*t up and got a pretty good estimate based on cost per ounce."
"Thankfully she mostly picked the 'Tiktok famous' perfumes like Bianco Latte and Escapade Gourmand and didn't go for the most rare, niche perfumes."
"She did snatch an entire 2.5 oz bottle of Baccarat Rouge, though, which runs $300+ at most retailers, as well as full bottles of perfumes you can get at Sephora."
"Like Marc Jacobs Daisy, Burberry Her Elixir, Flowerbomb, etc."
"Petty or not, I printed out the entire list of what she'd taken, price estimate, and handed it off to my sister (her mom)."
"I said that I expect to be paid back, in full."
"And of course her f*cking sneaky little a** is never allowed in my home again."
"My sister got super pissy with me going on about how my niece is just a kid, kids make mistakes, etc."
"I said yes, kids make mistakes, and this is a GREAT way for my niece to learn from hers."
"Their argument is that now the money she was going to use for a car has to go towards paying me back."
"I don't care."
"She is lucky that I have no interest in involving the police, small claims, or any of that."
"I'm not involving the police, suing anyone, etc."
'Please don't try to argue with me about this or 'convince' me why I should."
"But AITA, because she IS a teenager?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation, by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
- NAH – No A**holes Here
The Reddit community unanimously agreed that the OP was not the a**Hole for demanding their niece pay them back for all the perfume she stole.
Everyone agreed that the OP was absolutely right to demand to be compensated for their perfume, which their niece did, indeed, knowingly steal, and they were also correct in pointing out that their niece should consider herself lucky that her consequences aren't more severe:
"NTA."
"I don't see how her not having a car is your problem."
"The money she has for the car is made from selling perfume she stole from you."
"She's lucky the consequences are not more serious."
"I guess she won't have a car until she figures out legitimate ways to earn money that doesn't involve stealing."- sour_lemons
"NTA."
"I can see from the fact that her mom considers a 17-year-old 'just a kid', as if she were a 5-year-old who stole a cookie before dinner, has caused her to act very entitled."
"She made a series of decisions to steal from you and profit from it."
"And she's either 'just a kid"'when she's stealing pricey scents, or she's an almost adult saving up for a car; can't have it both ways on your dime."
"You'll be teaching her a better lesson than her mom bothered to."- TemptingPenguin369
"She's 'just a kid' who created a successful business enterprise selling stolen property."
"NTA."- Poutiest_Penguin
"NTA."
'I'm not involving the police, suing anyone, etc. Please don't try to argue with me about this or "convince" me why I should'."
"Understood but your niece is very lucky you are taking this approach."
"Their argument is that now the money she was going to use for a car has to go towards paying me back."
"I don't care."
"Of course it has to go to paying you back."
"Why would you buy your niece a car."
"If she didn't have to pay you back that is what would be happening with extra steps."- naraic
"NTA."
"She stole plain and simple. The age shouldn't be a consideration here."
"She needs to pay you back."- ReviewOk929
"NTA."
"But it might not be a terrible idea to post on her account how she got the samples so that her friends also know what she did, and they have to protect their own collections."
"Tell other family members also."
"It's possible you're not the only victim."- blueswan6
"NTA."
"Not even sure why you're asking this, to be honest."
"You are aware that if your sister is fine with also torpedoing her relationship with you (since your niece already did), you aren't getting restitution without getting the law involved?"- RyanStoppable
"Yes, her paying it back IS how she learns her lesson."
"As opposed to going to jail instead since she's a teenager."
"Instead of learning that there will be no consequences for stealing."
"NTA."- NatashOverWorld
"NTA."
"Yes, niece is a kid, but this was not a mistake."
"This was a series of choices."
"A 17-year-old is old enough to know the difference and pay the consequences."- Brother-Cane
"Easy NTA."
"Yes, she's a teenager, but that accounts for why you're willing to give her the pretty light consequences of 'only' paying you back for what she stole."
"Adults would be looking at legal consequences."
"She's not going to be able to afford a car for college because she got caught stealing and has to make it right. None of that is your fault."- AuspicaDarkmagic
"NTA."
"'Petty or not, I printed out the entire list of what she'd taken, price estimate, and handed it off to my sister (her mom). I said that I expect to be paid back, in full. And of course her f*cking sneaky little a** is never allowed in my home again'."
"Good on you! On both counts!"
"'My sister got super pissy with me going on about how my niece is just a kid, kids make mistakes, etc. I said yes, kids make mistakes, and this is a GREAT way for my niece to learn from hers'."
"You're right."
"Kids make mistakes, and so do adults, and the key thing is to take responsibility, learn from them, and try to repair any damage done."
"Your sister made a mistake."
"She raised a child to think - at 17! - that stealing is acceptable."
"Now she needs to repair the damage done to family relationships and try to set her daughter on the correct course in the little time she has left before her daughter reaches adulthood."
"Your niece, however...she didn't make a mistake."
"She did it deliberately."
"The only thing that was a 'mistake' was a) getting caught, and b) thinking her actions were acceptable."- Normal-Height-8577
"NTA."
"Not only did she steal from you, she did it badly, and she shouldn't get to use her stolen money on a car."- jrfbz
"My 17-year-old niece trashed our house while house-sitting once."
"I tallied up the damages (around $2000) and presented her with a bill for the things that was just maliciously broken (a part on my wheelchair that was broken when they raised it down the street and the net for my kids' trampoline that was slashed with a knife) totaling around $100."
"Her mother freaked out completely and told me it was my own fault for asking too much of a teenager and forbid me to talk to her."
"That teenager is now an adult."
"She has no job and no education and has even been homeless a while (in a country where homelessness is rare)."
"As soon as something gets hard, she just gives up and quits, and she has never learned to deal with the consequences of her choices."
"You will indeed do your niece a favor by teaching her that actions have consequences."
"It is understandable that your sister wants to protect her child, but the very best way to do that is to let her learn that lesson now when the consequence is just not getting a car and not going to jail."
"NTA - obviously."
One would like to give the OP's niece credit for coming up with an entrepreneurial way to save money to buy a car.
However, that credit isn't remotely deserved owing to the fact that she raised that money through theft.
As that perfume wasn't hers to sell, the OP is entitled to any and all profits earned.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp