At one time, church weddings were the privilege of the rich or royal.
Most other people were married at the bride's or groom's family home.
Church weddings evolved from simple blessings at home or at church entrances to becoming formalized sacraments. The Catholic Church established marriage as a sacrament in the 12th century, but it wasn't until the late 19th century that church weddings became commonplace.
But as more and more people are leaving religion in the 21st century, alternatives to church weddings are gaining popularity.
A bride-to-be with no interest in a church wedding turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback.
InvestigatorHour2911 asked:
"AITA for refusing a Christian wedding ceremony?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"I (26, female) got engaged a couple of months ago, and we are in the early stages of wedding planning. We are paying for the wedding ourselves."
"My parents had offered to give us money as a wedding gift to pay for the wedding with no strings attached. My in-laws aren't paying for any of it."
"I'm an atheist. My parents saw religion as a personal choice, and it was never pushed onto me."
"After learning about different religions, I came to the decision to be an atheist in my teens. My fiancé Marcus was raised Christian and has a lot of family who are deeply religious and whose faith is significant to them."
"Marcus himself is also an atheist. He explains that he realized he was only practicing because of his extremely religious grandparents and not because he believed in God himself."
"They went minimal contact with Marcus for a couple of months after learning he wasn't Christian anymore because they were so upset. I think (don't have any proof) they wanted him to marry a Christian girl so he would end up going back to being Christian."
"Because we are both atheists, having a Christian ceremony wasn't even something either of us ever considered. We want one of our friends to marry us, and to have the wedding somewhere outside."
"Well, his grandparents found out we are not having a Christian ceremony, and they have made it clear to him that they are devastated we won't have a Christian ceremony, especially knowing how important their faith is to them and most of his family."
"They want us to be married in their church by their pastor and to make vows to a God neither of us believe in—part of it will also be to invite God into our futures."
"They think we should give in and have a Christian wedding since we don't follow a religion, so it shouldn't matter to us, and they find it important."
"They are trying to get us to agree to have a Christian ceremony for their sake. Since neither of us are religious, and we know how important this is for them."
"Marcus and I agree we don't want a religious ceremony, but his grandparents' insistence is getting to Marcus since he has always been extremely close to them. I also hate the idea that this can affect my relationship with my in-laws."
"So Reddit, AITA for standing my ground and refusing a Christian wedding ceremony?"
The OP later added:
"My fiancé is the one talking to his family about this."
"They think since he was Christian for years to make his family happy—until his late teens when he realized he was only doing it to make his grandparents happy without believing—that we could have a Christian ceremony for the same reason."
"He is on my side, but doesn't want to ruin his relationship with his grandparents again. They distanced themselves from him for months after he told them he wasn't Christian."
"Part of the reason I'm against it is, I have a lot of people in my life that are religious. Having a Christian ceremony in front of my friends and family—who all know I don't believe—feels fake and like I'm making fun of their religion."
The OP summed up their situation.
"I feel like I might be the a**hole because this is causing a rift between Marcus and his grandparents, who he is really close to, as well as souring the relationships with my in-laws."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole (NTA).
"NTA: And a story time... I compromised with my now ex-in-laws about a religious ceremony. Fast forward to when I had children, and they tried to force baptisms."
"Going so far as to try to trick my children into it. Going behind my back and lying to me about what they were doing."
"When confronted, they argued it was fine because I was married in a Christian ceremony and was now therefore obligated, blah, blah, blah."
"Were they extreme in their actions and beliefs, yes. But I could have nipped the lying and sneaking by holding my ground on my wedding."
"It is your day, with your fiancé... not theirs." ~ lunarteamagic
"NTA! What if, instead of being atheists, you and Marcus both practiced a religion other than Christianity (for example, Judaism)? Would Christian Granny and Grampy throw a fit and insist you get married in a Christian ceremony?"
"And would you be expected to do that? This is no different, in my opinion."
"I also agree with the other person who said it's not going to stop with the wedding ceremony. If you have a Christian wedding, then you'll get pressured to baptize your kids as Christian, take them to church and whatnot."
"Really sorry you're dealing with this. The exact same thing happened to a young relative of mine (raised Catholic, but no longer practicing and had a secular, outdoor wedding)."
"Some family members were unhappy, but too bad. And by the way, the wedding was lovely and yours will be too." ~ SweetCitySong
"NTA. My stance would be that their religion is important to them, but you not having a Christian ceremony in no way impacts their lives or their relationship with their God."
"Maybe they might think it gets them in trouble with their God if they attend, but they are free not to attend. I'd also advise against compromising too much as this strong-arm tactic will come up again if you two have children and don't have them baptized."
"Marcus may also need to just shut the conversations down by ending them or walking away if it is brought up. Refuse to engage. Question/request has been asked and answered." ~ sharethewine
"NTA, and be advised that if you cave into this demand now, you'll be caving into such demands throughout the rest of your marriage."
"Your fiancé's grandparents will be upset that your kids aren't in Sunday School. They'll be mad that you're not celebrating Easter."
"They'll be mad that you're not bringing the kids to church on Christmas. It's never going to stop." ~ SomeoneYouDontKnow70
"Maybe OP should just elope and have a reception later." ~ floofienewfie
"NTA. My husband's family is very religious—his parents were Catholics but switched churches for a bunch of reasons when he was…I think in high school? Definitely, after he'd gone through Catholic Confirmation. I want to say they're Methodist now."
"My husband is an atheist. I'm a pagan. Since my husband didn't much care and I did, our wedding had a lot of pagan references in it. Symbolism of oak trees, that sort of stuff."
"We managed to get some young oak trees in containers to our wedding site so we could get married underneath them. It was the one important thing other than dress shopping that I asked my mom if she could manage, and she outdid my expectations, they were perfect."
"You've made a tactical mistake by telling relatives in advance that it was going to be an atheist wedding. You gave them time to whine and complain and pressure."
"My in-laws knew I was pagan for several years before the wedding, but we really didn't tell them anything about the wedding other than that we'd chosen turquoise for the mothers' color if she would like to match, but we wouldn't be upset if she would prefer to select something else."
"The last thing I wanted was drama, so I did deliberately choose a color that was flattering to both of our mothers, who have very similar coloring, but I was not going to require anything specific clothing-wise out of anyone but my bridesmaids and ring bearer."
"I think my FIL is the type to not get upset about anyone's faith, and my MIL was just relieved that we weren't going to be living in sin anymore after 8 years of living together."
"I think if they'd had any idea of what the officiant was going to say and do months in advance, my MIL might have had time to work herself up over it, but that's exactly why I didn't give her details." ~ KaliTheBlaze
The OP provided an update:
"Okay, so I don't know if anyone will read this, but feel like I should give an update on the situation since I got a lot of good advice and encouragement from people who have gone through a similar situation."
"After reading all the comments and talking with Marcus, we have decided to elope and avoid wedding drama and save the extra money for our honeymoon. Our plan is to pick one of the destinations we have always wanted to visit, travel there with a couple of our closest friends, max five people including us, and get married."
"Then having a more casual family celebration of the start to our marriage later."
"We are excited to elope because we get the outdoor wedding we want, and if there is family drama at the family gathering after, it won't be such a big deal since we will still have our wedding the way we wanted."
"For now, we are browsing potential places and loving feeling no stress surrounding the wedding."
"If anyone has any suggestions for cool places we could travel to, please share. I've always wanted to visit Iceland."
"And thanks to everyone who gave advice and encouragement."
It sounds like the OP found a solution that works for them, even if it doesn't work for her future in-laws.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp