There are always kids who fool around a lot, trying to be the center of attention. They crack jokes, make faces and show off to try to impress other kids.
But some kids behave this way at school during class, even if it gets them in trouble or irritates their classmates.
Kids with limited self-control may have a hard time resisting the urge to act out. If the thought enters their mind, they act on it without thinking of the impact or consequences.
While these disruptive behaviors are annoying for the teacher and other students, is it ever OK for another student to address the disruptive classmate directly?
A parent debating that issue with her daughter's school and the "class clown's" mother, turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback.
Diligent-Intern-8729 asked:
"AITA for refusing to make my daughter issue an apology to the class clown and telling the mother her daughter is a brat?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"My daughter Ava, 14, is a good kid in general. She gets good grades and is pretty quiet at school sticking to her friend group and not causing issues."
"I was surprised getting a call today that I needed to pick her up since she got in trouble at school."
"Basically what happened was the class clown, Mia, was messing around dancing/singing during class for no reason. My daughter had enough and told her to shut the f*ck up, no one likes her and she is the reason no one enjoys school."
"A student recorded the whole thing. Mia ended up crying and to the principal's office they were both sent."
"The principal wanted my daughter to give an apology to Mia. I told them no and that we are leaving."
"This started Mia's mom telling me her daughter needs an apology."
"I told her that her kid is a brat and she should learn how to behave in class. That if she wasnt annoying as all hell my daughter wouldn't have snapped after 5 months."
"She called me a jerk and my daughter is iffy if she should apologize, so I am making this post."
The OP added:
"The teacher was trying to get Mia back to her seat, this was in the middle of a lesson. She was trying and Mia was ignoring her and kept on going."
"It wasn't working, she had no control of the room. I saw the video, Mia was completely ignoring her."
"I'm sure that mom was getting calls from the teacher. I've sent an email before, I know a few other moms had. Nothing changed."
"Ava told me she couldn't deal with her anymore, that she put up with her for 5 months and she snapped. That everyday she would ruin something, that she can't have a peaceful day at school."
"This isn't a one off thing, this was five months of grinding her down until she snapped."
The OP summed up their conundrum.
"I told the class clown's mother that her kid is a brat and my daughter won't be apologizing. I may have went too far."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors were pretty divided with some saying Ava's annoyance justified her lashing out (NTA).
"This had been going on for months and a 14yo stopped it with words. Bravo...give the kid an award."
"Maybe its unacceptable but it got the job done. The teacher was obviously ineffectual and that's probably due to her having her hands tied ( she probably cheered in her head and said a Thank You Jesus)."
"Admins/parents have cockblocked basic discipline big time, the kid should've been kicked out of class the first time she acted up."
"Back in my day, maybe getting the yardstick from Sister Mary Stigmata may have been painful, but usually just the threat kept the class in line and moving in the right direction. NTA." ~ Jeheh
"A key factor in why so many kids and young people have no respect is that society has been forced to sugarcoat criticism and 'be gentle'."
"I'm sorry, but F-ck that. All kids that attend school have a right to learn and a kid who is consistently allowed to disrupt an entire class of 20 - 30 kids is hindering the academic progress of all those kids, many of whom want to learn."
"Enough with the pandering. When I was in elementary and high school, you did the wrong thing, you were told off, sent to the principal's office and/or your parents were called in."
"You sure as sh*t were not allowed to constantly cause disruptions to the class."
"Was it the teacher's job to keep the class in line? Yes! But these days, even teachers are nailed to the wall for reprimanding and, God forbid, disciplining somebody's precious little darling."
"Maybe we need to stop reprimanding the kids and start with their parents."
"OP, you are NTA and I commend your daughter for putting the class clown in her place by giving her a swift kick of reality right in the a**." ~ Ok_Smoke_1056
Others felt the exact opposite—Mia and the school were fine, but Ava and the OP were wrong (YTA).
"YTA. The teacher was attempting to handle the situation. What your daughter said was nasty and certainly not helpful." ~ definitely-lies
"YTA. Your daughter didn't just snap at this kid, and she was cruel to her. She could have stopped with the STFU. Instead, she went on to meanly bully her."
"You had a golden opportunity to teach your kid not to bully other children, and you blew it." ~ HoshiJones
"YTA. I'm shocked at everyone saying OP is NTA. Maybe you should teach your kid to address a problem with someone directly instead of waiting until they snap and curse out another student and say cruel things to them in front of the entire class."
"Yeah, Mia is annoying. If OP spent five months being annoyed by her, then she had five months to go to Mia and explain to her that her behavior was bothering everyone else and ask her to stop."
"Like, if she grows up and goes off on a coworker like this, she'll get fired. If she goes off on a partner like this, she may not have a relationship anymore."
"Teach your kid how to handle this sh*t like an adult, not let it fester and then explode." ~ rainblowfish_
"YTA. At minimum the language she used should be apologized for, it's not appropriate to speak to others like that nor is it a productive way to achieve any type of end goal or solution."
"Your daughter used violent language and you gave her the green light. Would you be OK if another child said those things to your kid?" ~ Tasty_Needleworker13
But the most compelling cases were made by those who felt everyone behaved horribly (ESH).
"ESH:"
"Mia for repeatedly disrupting the class.
"The teacher and school for letting it go on for this long.
"Your daughter for being wayy too harsh with the comments, all that wasn't necessary.
"You for not telling your kid (at least in private) that the comments were out of line. Defending her to the principal is one thing, but acting like that's completely OK? Nah."
"You're not entirely wrong in this scenario, but in general, you sound like one of those parents who thinks their kid is an innocent angel who can do no wrong. If she was, she wouldn't be telling someone to shut the f*ck up." ~ Away-Bass-4736
"ESH. Literally, everyone, no one in this story comes out looking good."
"Mia obviously *should* sit down and shut up. She's being disruptive and taking away from the learning environment."
"The staff at school and her parents need to recognize that Mia *is* being a problem, and they need to take action."
"Your daughter took it way too far with the 'no one likes you' comment."
"You didn't recognize that your daughter did take it too far and should apologize for that." ~ Big_Falcon89
"Mia is obviously in the wrong here for being a brat, but it's not OP's daughter's job or place to tell her off. She's not the teacher, she has no business CUSSING at another student regardless of how long the behavior has gone on."
"OP said it's lasted 5 months. Have they talked to the administration about it at all within those 5 months? Or did her daughter just decide to snap, potentially making things worse?"
"By OP not making her daughter apologize, she is sending the message that yelling and cussing is an appropriate way to talk to peers and communicate your needs."
"I'm going to assume this is not an elementary school, in which case I would argue that it's important to teach your children the PROPER way to respond to situations like these."
"And how OP and her daughter handled it was not very mature. OP got called in to talk about the situation, and instead of trying to have a constructive conversation, decided to double down and continue to refuse to apologize. HUGE ESH." ~ HeinousHarpy
"Here's the thing... no one knows for sure that nothing is being done by the school. There is a thing called confidentiality."
"They literally cannot tell other parents what actions are being taken to address a specific's students behaviour. They could be putting in behavioural strategies, consulting with the school-based team, putting her on a waitlist for an assessment, counselling etc..."
"They cannot tell other parents or students any of that. ESH." ~ vancitygirl27
"ESH. Shocked by people talking like OP's daughter is an aggrieved party. Ava also disrupted class to insult her classmate and make her cry."
"Mia might owe an apology to her teacher for not listening, but Ava owes both of them an apology."
"Between the girl disrupting class with a dance and a song, and the girl disrupting class with personal attacks, it's clear who the mean girl is." ~ atomosk
"ESH. The class clown, for being disruptive during class."
"The teacher, who should have shut the disrupting behavior down."
The principal, who should have addressed both sides of the issue."
"Your daughter, whose response was over the top, cruel and vindictive."
"And you, for completely blowing a teaching moment." ~ cachalker
As some pointed out, telling someone to be quiet in class is vastly different than adding "no one likes you."
Neither of the kids behaved appropriately, but none of the adults did either.
There needs to be a solution, but this wasn't it.
The OP added an update.
"Some stuff has happened since I posted this. It got out what my daughter did to the other parents and they have sent me email receipts of how many times they tried to get the school to do something about Mia."
"Most of the parents are pissed Ava had to go to the principal's."
"The principal has sent an email about conduct in the classroom and a new policy that if kids disrupt a class they will be taking action. Don't know what that means yet."
While OP sounds like they feel vindicated, hopefully, everyone considers all the consequences of their behavior and finds better solutions.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp