I hate to be a stereotypical woman, but I love true crime.
Movies, TV shows, miniseries... I can't get enough. It's my go to noise to play in the background while I work.
As such, certain first names might make me think of an infamous crime or criminal. Names like Ed (Gein), Sharon (Tate), Ted (Bundy), Dennis (Rader), or Jeffrey (Dahmer).
A dismayed parent turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback over their true crime loving wife's choice of children's names.
SpokaneIll asked:
"AITA for my reaction to my wife giving our twin sons true crime-related names?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"My wife has a slightly irritating true crime hobby. It's one of those hobbies we keep separate from our relationship."
"For the most part, she's normal about it and knows when to bring it up. I'm only reminded of it when she's around another 'aficionado'."
"We had twins earlier this year. There were some negotiations about the names."
"I know at the end of the day, she's the one doing the hard work and has the final say, but she was inclined to eccentric, potentially life-ruining names that I had to talk her out of."
"One day she came to me with two surprisingly ordinary names. And named separately, no one would bat an eye at either one. In fact, no one batted an eye until recently."
"We were visiting family and she was showing off the kids when my sister-in-law (brother's wife) took me aside and said 'Are you serious? You named your twins after *them?*'."
"The names are Dylan and Eric—the Columbine shooters. I had no idea, I hadn't made the connection until that moment. I'm lucky she didn't name our other son Lyle… Separately they are fine but together it is a striking combination."
"When I got home, I confronted her and demanded we change the names."
"She said it was just coincidence and that maybe subconsciously she paired the names, but the names are common. Changing them would be a hassle and draw even more attention to it in the first place."
"I said we can simply explain we hadn't made the connection at the time and decided to change it as soon as we realized. After all, my sister-in-law already said something! She won't budge and I find it concerning."
"Am I wrong?"
The OP summed up their situation.
"I wonder if wanting an official name change is overreacting, and I might be an a**hole because the names are pretty innocuous."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole (NTA).
"NTA. Sure, Dylan and Eric are perfectly normal names, but the fact she wants to name them after the murderers makes them very weird."
"Why on earth would you want to honor mass shooters with your babies' names? No way in hell would I allow this." ~ Far_Quantity_6133
"Oof, Dylan and Eric are normal names by themselves. Dylan and Eric together and my mind goes direct to Columbine, and I'm not a true crime aficionado."
"Also there's murder and then there's shooting up your school at age 17 and murdering ~15 classmates and teachers in cold blood and injuring many others… what they did is a special level of evil."
"Most names from true crime aren't recognisable to most people… Dylan and Eric are known across America (and the world) for the Columbine High School massacre. There's no escaping it."
"I was expecting some kind of obscure names that were maybe not related to each other… I actually gasped when I read Eric and Dylan. Just wow." ~ katiehates
"I watch zero true crime but absolutely knew these names from Columbine. Didn't take more than one second for me to go 'oh, NOOOO'."
"Columbine has become a blue print for school shooters. It's studied."
"The library footage is banned from YouTube every other week because people want to watch it. Extremely terrible thing to be named after. Highly inappropriate." ~ arightgoodworkman
"I'm Australian and was 16 when Columbine happened. I knew instantly who it was." ~ Lozzanger
"Same here on all points. OP, I think her naming them after murderers in general is concerning enough to be a hill to die on, but these specific names (for TWINS—names that will often be lumped together in life) are insane."
"I'm shocked your SIL was the first to mention it. Honestly, I'd assume that far more people clocked it, but it seemed too insane to mention."
"NTA.Everyone in these children's lives will know they're named after school mass shooters and that's an awful thing to do to your children. These are 'life-ruining names'." ~ CP81818
"Even if everyone in these infants lives doesn't make the connection, eventually these kids will be enrolled in school. Educators are pretty sure to make the connection."
"Do you really want every teacher and school administrator in your children's lives to think their parents were fans of big news making pair of school shooters? NTA." ~ MohawMais
"I like true crime, but I would never name my kids after murderers. That's really f*cking creepy. Does she fan girl over serial killers?"
"Does she want your kids to grow up knowing they were named after the Columbine shooters? Even if it's coincidence, it's really weird that she's resisting the change. NTA." ~ Wren1101
"People who like true crime only to crush on the murderers are f*cked up. For me, the fascination with true crime is the horror and the fact that monsters live among us."
"Why are people crushing on the monsters? Does OP's wife have the hots for Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Khan, too?" ~ old_vegetables
"Columbine happened the year my younger sibling was born. It was only 25 years ago- there are people alive today who were there, who remember the day, who saw the bodies, who cleaned up the blood."
"Not only is it real life, it was real lives."
"These names will make it seem like you and your wife have no empathy. What a way to take a steaming sh*t on the memory of the victims."
"OP, if there was ever a time for an ultimatum, this would be it. Don't let your kids grow up associated with a nightmare. NTA." ~ WadeStockdale
"I had a classmate in grad school who had been a student there when the shooting occurred. They weren't even in the building at the time, but the trauma was still so present, decades later."
"NTA. I gasped when I saw the names. OP's spouse is so utterly wrong, and I am concerned for those babies future." ~ reallifecleric
"I asked my husband, who is not at all into true crime, 'if someone named their kids Dylan and Eric, would that mean anything to you?' And he looked at me like I had sprouted a second head and asked why the F someone would name their kids after the Columbine shooters."
"I gave him no context other than the question. It's likely that no one their age will make the connection, but there are plenty of people around who will—including parents of their future friends and every teacher they get. NTA." ~ Mystchelle
"I think this is a perfect example of how bad this could be for the kids if the names don't change. Just the replies here show that there are possibly a lot of factors that influence whether someone recognises the pairing straight off."
"Certain age, location, crime buff, avid documentary enjoyer.. There isn't an avoidable pattern and it could be pointed out at any time."
"Not to mention how this is 'gasp worthy' gossip that would spread through a school, office, dorm in next to no time. It would be such a f*cked up position to be in as a kid if everyone was talking about how you and your brother are named after the Columbine shooters."
"The wife can say it's not 'after' them and it's just about the names on their own, but that isn't what others will say behind the kids' backs, probably some to their faces."
"NTA, and I don't know why this hasn't been said much, but the wife probably needs a mental assessment or intervention after this was pointed out to her. There's a line and this selfish 'naivety' is way over it no matter what her true intentions are/were." ~ Fawkesistherealhero
"Like, naming your kids something related to what you love can be endearing, but this is not that. This is asking to be in the local news as a disturbing fluff piece, or being looked at if (God forbid) there's a shooting in your area."
"I know someone who named their kids unique videogame names and they had CPS called for a mental evaluation when the school PTA found out. The characters were even heroes in the games."
"Imagine what PTA moms would do if they connected the dots? Chances are they will. NTA." ~ StrongNovel7707
"I work in education and I would be uneasy about a parent conference for parents who selected these names, not gonna lie. NTA." ~ Ok_Stable7501
"There's no way my kids would ever be allowed to go to little Dylan and Eric's house. Not because the kids, but because I know there's something fundamentally wrong with at least one of the parents. NTA." ~ snowwhite2591
It sounds like OP got his answer.
Many people are going to make a connection between his children and one of the worst school shootings in world history.
Asking for a name change to spare his children this stigma is perfectly reasonable.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp