Most parents who want advice about their children will ask for it.
Anyone who offers unsolicited criticism of a person's parenting or of their children is asking for a confrontation.
If someone isn't in imminent danger, it's not necessary to offer unwanted critiques.
A father dealing with unappreciated opinions from his sister turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback.
DadofGymRats93 asked:
"AITA for calling my sister wacko over my boys' 'inappropriate' shower habits?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"Dad of teens, boys 17 and 15. They are pretty lucky in that our whole finished basement is their junior Man Cave."
"It's not of my doing, the previous owner was a gym rat and really fixed it up. Besides their bedrooms, there's a little gym area with a couple of machines, free weights and even the world's tiniest locker room with three lockers and a bench etc..."
"It opens into a pretty large walk-in shower, a mini version of an actual locker room gang shower, about 5x7 feet I guess."
"The boys think this basement is their kingdom and they love it. So do their friends."
"When it comes to showering, it's not usual for them to just leave the water running and one jump in right after the other finishes. It's not even unusual for them to overlap."
"In fact it's not unheard of if they are in a hurry to both jump in at the same time after a workout. It's a pretty normal gym atmosphere and a decent size shower with a couple of shower heads—not like a bathtub shower or anything."
"Somehow this setup was mentioned in front of my sister—taking a house tour for the first time recently—and she was appalled. APPALLED."
"Taking a shower? At the same time? Together? She was positively incredulous."
"I told her it was absolutely no different than the boys showering at the gym, or in their sports locker rooms at school. Guys, especially athletes, take showers."
"Yes, together. Happens a million times a day."
"She said that was very VERY 'inappropriate'."
"No idea what's going on in her mind."
"I don't know if it's the fact that the boys are in there naked, or that they are showering together, or in the same space, or what."
"Maybe I don't even want to know."
"I'm for sure never mentioning their friends also work out down there with them sometimes and shower."
"I called her a wacko prude, and now she's not speaking to me or my wife."
The OP summed up their situation.
"I might be the a**hole because I guess it is pretty rude to call someone a wacko or a prude, especially one's own sister."
"I could have just chalked up her attitude to ignorance and kept my mouth shut rather than saying anything at all."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Most Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole (NTA).
"NTA!! If anything is inappropriate here, it's her for making a mundane, non-issue into some perverted concern."
"That is indeed whacko prude behavior, I wonder if she's uber religious…acting this way because any nudity is a sin or some BS."
"Good on you, OP. What could she think is so wrong‽‽" ~ booshie
"NTA. I grew up with sauna culture and my friend group is the chill one that doesn't mind mixed saunas."
"I probably don't even need to explain how ridiculous I think your sister is. Being naked doesn't need to be sexual at all and it's on your sister for thinking that." ~ Jatulintarha
"NTA. Looking back as an American adult, it's wild how crazy and harmful the whole approach is here."
"From the time you're a young kid, all you hear is 'these are your private parts! Nobody is supposed to see them! Don't even talk about them or you'll get in trouble! …oh yeah, here's a room where you have to get naked with everyone else, who's also been told it's bad to be naked in front of other people'."
"I honestly don't remember a single time being in a locker room when I was a kid where there wasn't someone being laughed at or mocked." ~ Molenium
"Guy here. Played all the sports. For f*cks sake, we would shower an inch away from each other, have full conversations, and constantly horseplay."
"There is literally nothing sexual or weird about it. We're just dudes man. We don't give a sh*t. NTA." ~ derbyman777
"I was in girls' sports and while we didn't horseplay, it was always common to be chatting, smelling each other's body wash if someone had a new one and similar."
"Band camp was the same as was the first year of college where we had stalls."
"I don't know what's up with your sister, but it's weird. NTA." ~ dasbarr
"NTA—I mean getting two teenage boys to even take a shower in and of itself can be a challenge. So I would be happy they are taking them as it is whether separate or not."
"As far as sharing a shower together, they are close to the same age as brothers. Does she get all weirded out if two toddlers take a bath together?"
"Now if it was an unrelated male adult with one or both, then yeah I get it. But your sister really is the weird one here for being appalled." ~ Mustng1966
"As a mom, that sounds like a setup I would love."
"Send all the kiddos in there, hose them down and move on! NTA." ~ Miascircus
"NTA. Does she also think it's weird at the gym or in a school locker room? If not, what's the difference?" ~ Lizm3
"When I was in high school the guys' locker room was communal showers and no doors on the toilet stalls, but the girls' locker room had dozens of individual, private shower stalls."
"So it's possible she just didn't realize what lockers are like for dudes. NTA."
"I can't imagine what she'd think of the trough style urinals." ~ TuckerCarlsonsOhface
"NTA and if she brings it up again, directly tell her to stop sexualizing your sons."
"As a former athlete, showering together was completely innocuous, and was usually just mind your own business and get clean." ~ Suitable_cataclysm
"I'm still over here trying to figure out what's so bad about two (unrelated, such as one of the brothers and their friend) 17 year-olds taking a shower together."
"I'm not sure what she thinks the problem is and it's not her business."
"Feels like homophobia has a stake in her argument." ~ LifelsButADream
"If the shower was 3 feet square (3 feet x 3 feet), any two people showering together would be weird."
"But as long as there is sufficient space to move around, then NTA." ~ survival-nut
"NTA—she has clearly never visited a YMCA locker room where shower heads line the wall and naked strangers of all ages wash their bodies in the same room together." ~ Fluffy_Sorbet8827
"NTA—I don't see why she is so worked up. It sounds like they treat it as their own personal locker room and that is absolutely normal to them—especially if they grew up playing sports at all."
"It's only weird if you make it weird."
"From her perspective, most women don't grow up in the same locker room style culture most boys do. Our locker rooms are simply set up different."
"It may very well be a foreign concept to her. She should, however, be able to logic herself out of clutching her pearls if she stopped to think for just a few seconds."
"Let's all just be happy the stinky teenage boys are showering and move on with our day." ~ chelseatx84
"NTA—it's ultimately none of your sister's business." ~ jrm1102
The OP provided an update.
"Spoke briefly with my sister, said she was just trying to 'help my parenting'."
"I ended the call. My boys are awesome, never caused me a minute's real trouble. They are parented just fine."
"Might be a while before I hear from her."
"When we do talk again, certain subjects just won't be discussed: showers, R-rated movies, the fact that the younger goes commando, grades lower than an 'A', skinny dipping or hot tubbing or any other bare-assed activities, questionable browser histories, manscaping, the younger one's occasional potty mouth... and God forbid she ever learns the older has had sex."
"We'll stick to the weather."
"To the 95% of you who said NTA, THANK YOU."
"To the 2% that said I should not have called her wacko... she did more than say the showers were 'inappropriate'... there was a full-blown unhinged rant mixed in there."
"To the 2% who said the showers were wholly inappropriate, that's your opinion. I couldn't care less and didn't ask for it. I asked if I was an a**hole for calling my sister a wacko prude. NOTHING else."
"And to the 1% convinced there is an orgy going on down there...I invite you to go f*ck yourself. There is nothing of the sort happening."
"It's a gym locker room and decidedly non-erotic. NO ONE is having sex down there. Grow up."
The advice offered by his sister was unsolicited and unwanted.
Maybe OP should offer his sister some advice.
MYOB is free.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp