All parents have had to resort to punishing their children at one point or another, telling them they can't watch TV or play with their friends for a certain period of time.
Most of the time, however, this is done as a last resort or under extreme circumstances, after their child has disobeyed them too frequently or did something that was truly unacceptable where a simple scolding wouldn't suffice.
Of course, parents often don't agree on what merits a punishment and what doesn't.
Some parents think enacting punishments for certain behaviors will end up being counterproductive.
Redditor No_Honeydew_4980 was growing increasingly frustrated by his 9-year-old disobeying his orders and lying to him.
Having finally reached a tipping point, the original poster (OP) felt he had no choice but to punish his son.
To the OP's surprise, however, his partner did not agree with his course of action.
Having some doubts about his decision, the OP took to the subReddit "Am I The A**hole" (AITA), where he asked fellow Redditors:
"AITA for grounding my son over his nonsense?"
The OP explained why he felt the need to punish his son and why his partner felt he went too far:
"My 9-year-old (yo) son Ashton has a bit of a mouth on him."
"I get it."
"He's a 9yo boy testing limits."
"But I have my limits too."
"He's been pulling the typical boy pretends-to-shower-and-brush-his-teeth act lately."
"At first I tried humoring it by jokingly telling him that I know he didn't shower or brush his teeth because I can still smell his hair from the other room."
"Then he'll ask if he can take a bath, and I'll say no."
"Shower, but I'll help you."
"Eventually, he started doing it by himself, then stopped."
"Now he just flat-out lies."
"Last night, I asked him if he brushed his teeth."
"I knew he didn't because his toothbrush was dry."
"He said yes."
"I said then why is your toothbrush dry."
"He said he meant yesterday."
"So I said ok, no video games or VR all week for lying to your dad."
"He cried and was pretty upset."
"Now his other dad thinks I'm making a mountain out of a molehill and to just let him go to school dirty and get bullied so he'll want to shower."
"AITA?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
The Reddit community was somewhat divided on whether or not they felt the OP was the a**hole for punishing his son for lying about brushing his teeth.
Some felt that the OP was justified in punishing his son, as his son needed to learn not to lie to him, even if a few felt his choice of punishment went a bit too far given the circumstances, but found the other Dad's willingness to let their son be bullied utterly shocking.
"NTA."
"The other dad is an AH."
"Bullying to help him?"
"Yuk."
"And is there a problem with a bath and then shower for his hair?"- AlexMango44
"Mostly NTA."
"First off, don't listen at all to the dad who wants his child to be bullied."
"Absolute bullsh*t."
"A week is a bit long for one lie."
"I understand you're sick of dealing with it, but at his age, carrots tend to work better than sticks."
"What if, every time he's brushed and showered, he gets to stay up 15 minutes later and play a game with you?"
"OR, each night he's brushed and showered by a certain time, he earns a ticket or a point toward a toy or video game he really wants."- ___coolcoolcool
"The fact that he's suggesting a bath instead may indicate another reason he doesn't want to use the shower."
"As a kid I had an avoidance to it."
"Not because I was just trying to get out of it and be lazy, but because I had sensory issues, and the noise of the shower made my anxiety spike."
"If you're worried about the water being dirty, then a bath as normal, standing and then rinsing quickly with water from the taps will eliminate that issue."
"The bath could be a good alternative, maybe introducing a week where he has to use the shower instead as a way of slowly acclimating?"
"If you haven't already, just sit down and talk to him, see if there is a reason why he's avoiding it."
"Sometimes it is a phase and other times there's a reason for it, especially if he was accepting it with help and then briefly did it himself as well before stopping."
"Letting him go dirty and knowing he'd potentially get bullied for it is not the way to go, and there's no guarantee that will resolve this and suddenly make him want to shower."
"Maybe it would, but it doesn't mean the teasing would stop either."
"Just sounds like more understanding is needed."
"NTA/Very nearly TA."- mochidoo
Others, however, felt the OP was the a**hole for jumping to punishment as quickly as he did, feeling he should have taken a more compassionate route to figure out why his son was so resistant to showering and brushing his teeth, with others pointing out that his son won't learn any kind of lesson from this punishment:
"YTA and a bad parent based on your comments."
"Do some research on what actually works for kids instead of reacting to your emotions about his (completely age appropriate) behavior."- ExistentialApath
"You're kind of TA."
"He's doing a typical kid thing."
"Hell, I don't always want to shower."
"It's an un-fun task."
"Empathize with him."
"This can be a learning experience about how we sometimes have to do things we don't want to do."
"You're raising an adult, not a child, with the goal to be obedient for obedience's sake simply."
"Of course he lied to you, he doesn't want to shower."
"The punishment you gave him seems random and excessive."
"He literally has no incentive now to shower because you've already taken a whole week away."
"What is he really learning from this?"
"Essentially, he's learning how to lie better and how to resent you."
"If you have to, tell him he can't game until he showers."
"He's earning the fun things, not just being punished for not doing things."- spears515034
"YTA."
"I'm not sure why you don't think a bath is better than not washing at all, but this is a weird hill to die on."
"Kids respond better to positive reinforcement."
"Try encouraging him with a reward chart - he gets a star for every day he bathes and brushes his teeth, redeemable for a new video game."
"Or something similar."
"Make him want to do it."
"Don't make hygiene a punishment."- voxetpraetereanihill
"YTA for not being more flexible about it."
"Let the kid take a bath, or throw some dry-erase markers, or tell him he can sit in the shower with a little tub with some toys to play with after he uses soap and shampoo, or buy him some of the soap that comes with a toy or money inside."
"It's important that he is clean, but a bath would be fine to get him clean (unless he's especially muddy, then should rinse off first).
"I always hated showers as a kid but loved baths - still do as an adult and found out it's largely due to a medical issue involving low blood pressure, rapid heart rate, and dizziness which is a lot worse when standing or in heat, but as I kid the way I expressed that was just 'I don't like showers.'"-TimeRabbit2966
Others had trouble sympathizing with the OP, his partner, or their son, finding all of their behavior unacceptable:
"ESH"
"Your son has an excuse that he's a kid and still learning how to be human, and he needs good role models."
"Neither you nor his other father are hitting that mark."
"Now, the question is, why is he lying?"
"Is it really because he hates to bathe, or is there some other underlying issue that neither of his dads is picking up on because one is too hyper-focused on the hygiene issue and the other is so lax he doesn't even think there's an issue to be discussed."
"As an aside, my brother and I both had a 'lying about brushing teeth' period."
"He did it because he hated standing in one place for more than two minutes because he was hyperactive as a kid and it was just a phase."
"In my case, it's a matter of executive dysfunction traceable to either autism or ADHD that I still struggle with decades later."
"If you're lucky, it's just a phase."
"But if there's another root cause, it's best to figure out what that is early rather than leave him unheard and undiagnosed."- IAndaraB
There is no question about it: the OP's son needs to shower and brush his teeth.
However, taking things away from him until he does might not be the best way of getting him to do it, and allowing him to be bullied at school would be the absolutely wrong thing to do.
Hopefully, both fathers can work on improving their communication skills, and they'll eventually find a mutually pleasurable way to instill the importance of personal hygiene in their son.
Namely, losing video games is one of the most inconsequential things that might happen to you if you do not brush your teeth.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp