We all need a little support from time to time.
Whether it's being told that we're good at a particular thing we enjoy, or being reminded that we made someone feel a little better.
What happens though when supporting someone you love means standing up to someone else that you also love?
That was the issue facing Redditor and Original Poster (OP) sandhot7937 when he came to the "Am I the A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for outside opinions.
He asked:
"AITA for telling my brother I wouldn't go to his wedding if he only invited some of my kids?"
OP began with the setting.
"I (40 male) have 6 kids (15 f 14m, 13m, 12f, 8m and 3f) with my wife (40f)."
"My brother (30m) lives close and my kids see him a lot and love him."
"He is getting married to his fiancé (30f) in 3 months. This wasn't an issue until recently."
Then he explained the origin of the issue at hand.
"This year in school, our 13 y/o son's friend group became friends with a feminine gay boy, the boys bonded over their love of sports, while my son and his friends play hockey, the boy ice skates."
"There is an ice sports place in our area that our son plays hockey at and often sees his skating friend there."
"This year, the boy was being bullied for his sexuality and wearing makeup, my son and his friends were upset about this and defended him."
"My son and his friends always complimented him on his makeup and nails, once he did the school colors as a look, the boys had an upcoming tournament and he wanted to support them."
"The boys thought this was cool and asked if he could do a look for them, he did and they loved it."
"As a result of that, my son and his friends have been experimenting more with how they look, when we went to buy wedding clothes shopping my son found a vintage suit online, he also said he wanted to wear makeup, his friend did a look for him and he loved it."
"I texted my brother a pic of my son to see what he thought, he and his fiancé wanted to see the outfits of the guests before the wedding when I sent him a pic of my son, he told me that he didn't want kids wearing makeup at his wedding."
"But this didn't make any sense as my 12 y/o daughter was wearing makeup and he had already seen her look."
"I called him out on it and then he admitted he didn't want my son wearing makeup because he was a boy and our family, as well as the family of the bride, are Evangelical and traditional."
"He said he didn't want anyone 'looking gay' because that could start something, he said he didn't mind my son wore makeup but didn't want it at the wedding."
"I called him to try to sort things out but it only got worse. He then started to talk about how my son is a bit edgy and has said stuff that offended our religious family."
"And said my son wasn't invited because he was too afraid that my son would do something to upset our family."
"After the call, I spoke with my wife and we agreed that if our son couldn't go, none of us would, we were upset at my brother and felt he was rude, especially for saying our son 'looked gay,' our son has only liked girls, we would be ok if he was gay though."
"I called him after and he told me to speak to my son and tell him to drop the makeup and not make any edgy remarks."
This all led to OP issuing an ultimatum.
"When I told my son he got upset and asked if his uncle cared about him, I didn't want to make my son upset more so I called my brother and told him we either were all coming, including my son in makeup, or none of us at all."
"He said I was being a jerk. AITA?"
Having explained the situation, OP turned to Reddit for judgment.
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided: NTA
Some responses were very direct.
"NTA at all."
"Your brother sounds homophobic."
"You made the right decision and your son is going to be so thankful you stood up for him."
"Can't believe an adult is uninviting a kid just because of makeup, seriously so dumb." ~ pianoteach96
"NTA - Your brother is happier appeasing bigots over being decent to your kid."
"You are looking after the welfare of your kid and supporting him in how he chooses to express himself creatively and also how he has chosen to express his support of his friend."
"Your son sounds like the BEST friend you could hope to have." ~ Sloppypoopypoppy
Others shared personal stories.
"Yeah, my dad is like that."
"He used to have a handful of gay friends when I was younger, women and men, and he was chill with me identifying as bi (back before I transitioned ftm)."
"But my younger brother was always interested in feminine fashion and makeup, and has had crushes on other boys growing up (he even admitted to me after a close friend of his passed away that he was in love with him and they were planning their lives together after graduation)."
"But he kept it on a short leash around our Aggressively Macho Dad."
"He still keeps a tight lid on his feelings with our dad, because my dad used to chew ME out when I would let him borrow my clothes or jewelry (not that I had much lmao-- I was a 'tomboy' before I figured out I wanted to drop the 'tom' part)."
"He sent me a picture a little while ago of him in a dress and I almost cried I was so happy he felt safe and comfortable enough with me to share that."
"TL;DR plenty of people are fine with queer people existing, so long as they Exist Somewhere Else." ~ rougarousmooch
"I grew up in the '80s with kind understanding parents."
"At one point one of my brothers took longer with his hair and makeup than I, the only daughter in the house, did."
"Now he's slightly overweight and bald. He was an athlete, jazz band, honor roll, and valedictorian."
"Pretty sure the makeup and hairspray (my god the hairspray) didn't hurt him or his family or his potential earning power."
"As my dad said, it'll all wash off it's not like he's painting the barn." ~ cassidy11111111
Some were just shocked at the request for pre-wedding pictures to begin with.
"NTA full stop."
"And what kind of broken door knob of a couple asks to pre-approve a relative guest kid's wedding outfit?"
"Just do a casting call and hire your perfect guests & call it a day, you superficial dehydrated tadpoles." ~ twoofheartsandspades
"Am I the only one that thinks the groom wanted to have approval on their outfits solely because he was trying to make sure his brother's kid didn't wear makeup?"
"OP mentioned in a comment that he has been experimenting with it and worn it multiple times, so the brother probably knew he would want to and wanted the ability to control what he was wearing."
"NTA but beware, this is the tip of the iceberg with your older son's attitude towards his brother."
"The fact that he is marrying into a devout evangelical family and is siding with their opinions is also very telling. They are also his own opinions." ~ opinionswelcomehere
"I'm glad someone pointed this out!"
"I know people can go bat sh*t crazy over their weddings, but this is really ridiculous."
"Would never have sent a picture."
"Don't want to encourage the craziness. And I hope to have an occasion where I can refer to someone as a superficial dehydrated tadpole!" ~ Muted-Appeal-823
"NTA in any way."
"Minor plot point...they wanted to see the outfits before the wedding???"
"What is that about? No way I would ever comply with that request. I would keep sending photos of me in various costumes, but I can be petty like that. 😊"
"As for the bigger issue, your brother is showing who he really is. That's very sad. He only loves your kids if they adhere to his standards."
"All of the males in your family should show up in full make-up and kilts. Oops, I'm being petty again." ~ sawta2112
While most were on OP's side, there was a dissenting opinion.
"I think this one's hard to judge because it depends on what wearing the makeup truly means to your son."
"You and your son know it will create drama at your brother's wedding."
"Just because the other family members are wrong, doesn't mean you're then free to knowingly cause drama at someone else's wedding. Two wrongs don't make a right."
"I think the question is how big a burden is it for your son to not wear makeup, to prevent the circumstances you and he knows will occur otherwise."
"If it's truly part of his identity, then I think it is reasonable to reject not wearing it."
"If it's simply a sign of support, like wearing a button or t-shirt or whatever, then I think you're being unreasonable."
"In either case, I don't think your brother can be blamed for wanting to avoid drama at his wedding."
"It's not even about just his side of the family - his wife's side is Evangelicals, too. Expecting him to turn his wedding into a debate about personal freedoms is not reasonable."
"And in either case, if your son is not invited, then you all not going is of course also reasonable and laudable."
"So without knowledge about what it truly means to the son, I'm going with NAH." ~ witcher_rat
We all need support sometimes.
We need to know that the people we surround ourselves with love and cherish us for who we are.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp