Gender roles in a society centered on a gender binary—my paternal and maternal ancestors recognized five genders, not two—and the restrictions they place on women are very real.
But they also get a lot of light shined on them because the exclusions women face in those societies are often based around power, financial security and bodily autonomy.
Whereas the restrictions placed on men often center around stepping into stereotypically "feminine" spaces. Like being the primary—or only—caregiver for their children.
While society calls on men to take a more active role in their children's upbringing, fathers often find parenting spaces exclusionary or centered on women.
Are there diaper changing stations in every men's bathroom?
Are most parenting resources still labeled with mom or mommy instead of parent?
A woman who decided the parenting group at her daycare was moms only found herself in conflict with the other members. So she turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback.
Notcomfyaita asked:
"AITA for not wanting a guy included in our mom friend group?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"I (35, female) am a single mother to 2 kids (5 & 3). Both my kids are in daycare, and over the years, I have built a solid friend group with a handful of other moms, and our kids regularly get together for play dates."
"The father of my kids is not in the picture at all, and my relationship with him is non-existent. This is 100% for the best, and I am currently in therapy to deal with a lot of things that my ex did to me."
"This friend group has literally been a lifesaver for me at times."
"A few months ago, there were two new kids that started at our daycare center. They are similar in age to my kids and were placed in the same classes as them."
"I noticed that their dad was the only parent to ever pick up or drop off the kids. He would try to make small talk with me a few times, but I am uncomfortable around strange men, so I would be polite but not engage further than that."
"Our mom group has a group chat that we use to support each other and arrange play dates. A few weeks ago, one of the moms texted the group chat that she was adding this new dad to our group chat because he wanted to have his kids participate in play dates outside of daycare."
"I privately texted that other mom and told her that I don't feel comfortable with a man I don't know having my contact information and told her that she should have consulted all of us before deciding on her own to add him to our group chat."
"I then texted the rest of the moms and told them that I want them to keep a separate group chat without the other dad because I don't know him, and it makes me uncomfortable."
"This resulted in a lot of divided opinions, with about half of the moms agreeing to a separate chat and the other half saying that it would be too difficult to keep track of and that it is wrong to exclude another parent just because he's a man and that I'm being unreasonable."
"The mom I texted privately replied to me that she has talked with this dad numerous times, that he seems like a nice person and a good parent, and that his kids shouldn't be excluded if they want to hang out with their friends outside of daycare."
"She told me I am being difficult and making this all harder than it needs to be."
"The other day when I picked up my kids, my 5-year-old was upset because a bunch of his friends were talking about a playdate that he wasn't invited to."
"I texted the moms about it, and they said that they were getting the kids together with the new dad and didn't invite my kids because of how I was acting."
"I told them it was rude to exclude my kids like that, and a couple of the moms told me to grow up because that's exactly what I was trying to do to this dad and his kids."
"I'm at a loss because these moms have been so supportive to me in the past, and as soon as this dad comes into the picture, it's like they pulled a 180 and didn't seem to care at all."
"There are still other moms who agree with me, but now it's like our friend group has been divided by this."
"Why does he have to be included in our long-standing group chat?"
"I don't care if they text him on their own. I just don't want men I don't know having my contact information, it makes me uncomfortable."
"Being a dad doesn't make someone a good person. Just look at my ex."
"Just because he's a widower doesn't mean he's a good guy."
"My trust needs to be earned, not just given out to anybody."
The OP summed up their conundrum.
"My mom's friend group has been divided because some moms want to include a dad and his kids in our group, and I am uncomfortable with it."
"Some of the moms agree with me, but others are telling me I am being difficult and unreasonable."
"Now my kids are being excluded from things. I think I might be an a**hole for not wanting a dad included in our mom friend group."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was definitely the a**hole (YTA).
"YTA. You absolutely have the right to set boundaries based on your own experiences and comfort level."
"You absolutely don't have any right to impose your boundaries on everyone around you."
"You think this is a moms' group chat with the sole purpose of women supporting women, but clearly, other members think it's a parents' group chat about interacting with and supporting other parents."
"This dad is a single parent. His dead wife can't join the group chat so his kids won't get excluded by your unreasonable demands."
"You're scared and distrustful of men, so you can choose to keep them out of your social groups. But you can't force your fears onto everyone else, which is what you decided to do."
"Also, you claim, 'My trust needs to be earned, not just given out to anybody,' but you admit to giving it out automatically to the women who are added to the group."
"If you're uncomfortable in this space, then you need to leave. You can't demand everyone conform to your needs." ~ OglalaWinyan
"YTA. Oof, if this continues, the kids are going to pay the price."
"Even back when I was a kid, men drove carpools, coached soccer, ran after-school computer clubs (that will give away my age), did tutoring, hosted birthday parties, dropped me off after sleepovers, and otherwise interacted in such a way that my parents ended up spending time with them and sharing contact info.
"They didn't stay 'strange men,' but they started that way—and the reason they didn't stay that way was because my parents interacted with them. Literally, everyone starts a stranger."
"And that was 30-40 years ago when the "mom does everything" was much more normalized. It's even more likely for her kids to be around dads now, whether or not they're single parents."
"Refusing the minimum amount of contact required to do things like plan play dates is going to affect her kids' socialization in general, over time, if she doesn't address it."
"I empathize with her trauma; I truly do. She needs help. But this is not the way to deal with it." ~ thievingwillow
"'I'm not comfortable about this man simply because he's a man and he exists, so I forbid you to be comfortable with him either. I'm so uncomfortable about his existence that I'm threatened by him even having my contact info or knowing my name. I forbid this group from including him in our completely innocuous chat group about mundane parenting topics and group-related functions."
"Misandry, thou name is OP."
"'My child is upset that they are not invited to a play date because the man that I dislike for simply existing is attending. When I said that I was uncomfortable with him in our group, my intention was to exclude HIM and HIS KIDS from our chats and play dates. I never wanted you to exclude ME and MY KIDS! I did nothing wrong, and clearly he did by being a man and existing!'."
"Well, she got her wish. She doesn't have to participate in functions or play dates that he attends. Super awesome that she's teaching her kids early to judge an entire gender by one or two terrible people that have wronged her and are that gender."
"That's going to translate well for everyone later in life when they start noticing things like race and sexual orientation and gender norms and religion and politics. A1 parenting there OP—you taught your kids misandry and how to be judgemental and exclusionary in one fell swoop." ~ Amazing_Cabinet1404
"YTA. She has issues, and she wants to man bash with her 'mommy group', who she uses for her therapy between her appointments. Sounds like she has more issues than National Geographic, especially with people who happen to be male."
"She is unwilling to even attempt to get to know him because of her hang-ups. She has zero consideration that as a widower, he is a single parent and would benefit from the support of these other parents."
"I have a suspicion that this mommy group is tired of being her in-between therapist stand-ins. Too bad it is her kids who will suffer from the consequences of her hang-ups." ~ tillieze
"YTA. In her comment OP says her trust needs to be earned, yet she actively refuses to engage with this dad. Like how dense can you be?" ~ Papatrev4ever
"I can tell her kids are young because she hasn't already had her contact info added to a bunch of group chats with random people she doesn't know for her kids' 1,000 activities."
"YTA. She needs to work this out with her therapist. She will have to at least casually interact with men and fathers as her kids get older."
"My son does basketball, and I just got added to a group chat with a bunch of dads without anyone asking me. No big deal. it's just used for reminders and letting the coach know when we won't be there." ~ InfiniteLIVES_
"YTA. She asked to be excluded. She was excluded. Maybe next time she'll think before she makes a demand."
"She has all the right in the world to set the boundary she did, but she can't then reasonably be upset at the other parents for following and respecting that boundary."
"But of course, she didn't actually want to be excluded."
"What really happened here is she thought she was so loved/important/etc... to this group that they wouldn't dare exclude her and would instead exclude the new parent for the crime of being a man."
"Now that she's found out she isn't that special, she's upset. Too bad." ~ AsherTheFrost
"She sounds like one of those high school girls who think they're living in a TV show who doesn't see her friends as actual people and instead views them as her entourage. 'You're not allowed to be friends with him, I don't like him'."
"She doesn't seem to realize people can just stop being friends with her. YTA." ~ PurpleFlavoredCherry
"YTA. Oh God, organizing stuff with young kids is such a pain already at the best of times."
"What sweet Hell is it when some random mom hijacks the group dedicated to that to serve as her own on-call support group on top of everything else?" ~ nottherealneal
"YTA. Your hypocrisy astounded me. They followed your wishes in theory."
"They didn't invite you where Dad was coming. You're just mad you got the boot and not him." ~ throwthedough1
"By her logic, it's okay to leave his kids completely isolated and not involve them because it's a father as a single parent."
"So his kids can suffer, but not hers. She sounds a bit entitled to me—unable to put herself in other's shoes." ~
"YTA: And quite frankly, well done to the other mums not caving in to pressure from you to exclude another single parent trying to do the best for their children."
"As women, we have suffered with discrimination for centuries and felt firsthand how difficult life can be when you're not taken seriously in a role simply because of your gender."
"Now you want to exclude a fellow single parent (and his innocent children) simply because he is a dad when he seems to have given no reason for you to distrust him."
"As a society, we love to criticize how men don't do enough for their children. Meanwhile, you're actively trying to exclude a father who is making an effort to socialize his children and build friendships."
"I am sorry you're dealing with past trauma, but if you don't feel comfortable communicating with him, that does not give you the right to try to force others to exclude him and his children."
"Single dads deserve an emotional support network too. It's up to you to step back if that is what's best for you. But you need to accept the repercussions that will have on your children." ~ Sun_Sea_and_Sony
"YTA. For several years, I was that dad. I brought my child to a birthday party at someone's house, for example, and there was a bit of an awkward exchange before the mother invited me in."
"The mothers of every other child at the party were all there and knew each other. I was the only father there and the only one who didn't already know everyone."
"I am fortunate that this woman invited me into her home because that was the first step in getting to know the moms and the moms getting comfortable with me. It was a lot harder for me, but I was eventually brought into the mom group."
"At the end of the day, we all just want our kids to be happy and safe. I don't care if my child's friend has two dads. I don't care if my child's friend is a different race or from another country. I don't care if my child's friend practices a different religion."
"I just want my child to be able to be a kid and play with other kids. All I'm trying to say is this: dads are parents too!" ~ junkman21
The OP didn't provide any updates or indication she took her judgment to heart.
Hopefully, she can work through her issues regarding her ex before her children start school full time.
The men she doesn't know might be teachers, administrators, support staff, and bus drivers. Fathers will be volunteers for activities her children want to participate in.
She'll be inundated with men she doesn't know who need her contact information—or she can choose to isolate and exclude her children.
It sounds like getting to know this father was an opportunity she wasted.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp