With every passing day gender norms and old school traditions are being knocked down and reimagined.
And as much as this process is seen as progress, there are still a few strong holdouts for keeping one or two things the same.
Some people enjoy a good tradition now and then.
But what if one belief really makes a particular person feel uncomfortable in their own home?
Can there be a compromise?
Case in point...
Redditor Super-PizzaCat wanted to discuss his experience and get some feedback. So naturally, he came to visit the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit.
He asked:
"AITA for refusing to not attend my wife's baby shower?"
The Original Poster (OP) explained:
"Last Saturday, my wife had her baby shower, which turned out to be a very long event from midday until 10 pm."
"Prior to this, while we were planning the baby shower and sending out invites, I had initially intended to invite my entire family."
"However, my wife informed me that the baby shower was going to be female-only, which confused me."
"In my family, I have attended baby showers for all my female relatives, so it felt like this was a cultural difference."
"Unfortunately, this meant I had to embarrassingly uninvite people after already sending out invitations."
"Initially, I didn't make a big deal out of it because it was my wife's special day."
"However, later on, she told me that the 'no men' rule extended to me as well."
"I thought she was joking, but she was serious, explaining that it's customary in her family to have a ladies-only baby shower."
"At this point, I became upset."
"In a baby shower that I was paying for and planning, I was being excluded from my own wife's event in my own home."
"I found it absurd."
"The party lasted for about 10 hours, and I was expected to leave my own house for the entire duration."
"We argued back and forth about this issue."
"It just seemed ridiculous to me that as her husband, I was not allowed to attend my own wife's baby shower."
"Her sister overheard our argument and supported my wife's stance, saying that men are typically not invited to baby showers and that my presence would ruin the atmosphere and 'vibe.'"
"This disagreement occurred three weeks before the actual baby shower, and even on the day before the event, I tried reasoning with my wife again to let me stay, but she still refused."
"She also told some of her family members about our argument because I got an angry text from her mother telling me to just listen to what she says since the baby shower is for her not me and that she can decide on whoever attends or doesn't."
"I still refused to leave since it's our home and I'm literally paying for the event."
"I managed to compromise by just chilling in the backyard while everyone else was inside."
"My wife still wasn't happy about it though."
"Am I the a**hole here?"
Redditors shared their thoughts on this matter and weighed some options to the question AITA:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Many Redditors declared OP and everyone involved was the A**hole.
"ESH. You both should work on communicating better with each other."
"Baby showers are traditionally female only and 'co-ed' baby showers are a more recent thing, with some cultures adopting the practice more openly than others."
"Your wife shouldn't have assumed that you knew this tradition though, and should've expressed her intentions while you guys were planning."
"You're not an AH for feeling bad because you felt excluded, even when you were involved in the planning."
"However, you displayed AH behavior when you made the event about you and how you paid for everything."
"Your camping out in the yard is less of a compromise, but more of a last stand."
"You should've explained to her that you just want to welcome the baby with her, as that is the purpose of baby showers, or to maybe organize a separate co-ed baby shower so that everyone can also have that chance." ~ VioletIsNotPurple
"Engagement parties/bridal showers/baby showers are usually events thrown for you by someone else."
"And usually traditionally at least again in the US South, it's a woman throwing the showers for other women and no men."
"Obviously with traditional gender norms being thrown to the wind as it's 2023 this doesn't happen as much anymore and co-ed showers are more mainstream."
"But throwing your own is still weird as it's intended to be a gift event and throwing your own seems gift grabby in terms of etiquette."
"I wonder where OP is that it's culturally normal to throw your own party and have it be co-ed." ~ prongslover77
"Why would anyone want to attend a 10-hour baby shower, let alone host it?"
"What was happening at this event? 10 hours????" ~ opinescarf
"I can't get past OP paying for the shower."
"I've never seen that before."
"In my experience, baby/bridal showers are given by close friends as part of the gift."
"Having the new mom/bride plan and pay for the shower is ridiculous in my opinion."
"She's got enough going on already."
"I'm from Texas so maybe it's a southern thing." ~ ConsequencesInAction
"My brother told me he was going to throw a baby shower for his wife, and asked me to help him design the invitations."
"I said you can't throw a shower for your wife, that's not your job, I'll throw the shower."
"He did hang around for the shower, which was in their backyard, but that's because his wife is super needy and can't be separated from him." ~ julet1815
"NTA. I'm sorry a 10 HOUR baby shower!!"
"I threw a baby shower, paid my me and her girlfriends, at the beginning all women, and then the guys came and ate and hung out with their partners."
"Everyone had fun!"
"This shower sounds like a contest of endurance and not fun."
"I attended a baby shower where guys were in the backyard women in another area of the house, opening gifts/playing games. Eating sweets etc."
"Guys grilled up food and we finished in the backyard."
"What I mean by these examples is you celebrate mom and bond. There are no set rules."
"The point is to bond with those people who will support you as a mom and a family."
"Good luck, OP!" ~ Ariesinnc3017
"I never liked this rule."
"Technically this is a party to celebrate the baby's birth."
"The gifts are for the baby."
"Saying parents can't throw their own baby shower is like saying parents shouldn't throw their kid's birthday parties."
"Plus not everyone has super close friends or family with time and money to throw a shower, f**k not everyone even has close friends or family period that would be willing to do it even if they had the time and money."
"I fully support parents throwing their own showers."
"There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't." ~ ClutzyCashew
"No way am I spending 10 hours at a baby shower!"
"That sounds horrible!"
"I don't care if they're bringing in a Broadway show for it."
"I don't care if they bring in Taylor Swift to perform."
"I don't care if they're giving away new cars as party favors."
"I'm NOT spending 10 hours at a baby shower!"
"That sounds horrible and is perhaps the weirdest thing I've ever heard of." ~ Ramscales
"The middle ground between being there/not being there for a 10h event is pretty obvious, no?"
"You attend part of it."
"Let the women gather for the first half so they can talk about all of the things they don't feel comfortable discussing around men, and then husbands are welcome to show up for the second half for a cook-out." ~ FirstMasterpiece
"OP is entitled to be in their own home."
"Even if OP wasn't privy to the party itself, the party did not have to commandeer an entire home."
"They could have taken up space in the living room or kitchen area."
"It's also unreasonable for a 12 pm start time event to continue until 10 pm, late at night, and expect OP to not have access to their own home." ~ majesticjewnicorn
"This is the part I got hung up on as well."
"Baby showers being female only or open to everyone are both fairly common and it's more of a cultural thing, and I don't think it's wrong for either of them to have different opinions about it."
"However, regardless of if they decide for him to be there or not, 10 hours is a very long time to insist that someone can not be inside their own home." ~ Friend_of_Hades
"I just can't wrap my head around the sheer entitlement of the wife AND the women who don't even live in that house... expecting to commandeer the entire house whilst the person who probably is the primary source of income to keep that roof over their heads is banished."
"It makes me wonder how many times OP's wife has had the girls over for a social event and kicked OP out of the home... considering she feels comfortable in her entitlement." ~ majesticjewnicorn
"I don't think that 'paying for the event' is the winning argument you think it is."
"You're a family now, there is no yours and hers."
"It's definitely a cultural difference, as I've never been to a baby shower that included men - even the father."
"This won't be the first thing that you two differ on, and with raising a child it will happen often."
"You both need to learn a better way of working this out."
"Neither gets to insist."
"You both persuade and talk and empathize until you agree on a course going forward."
"You ABSOLUTELY must NEVER bring people outside your marriage to stick up for one view or the other."
"If things like your mother or her mother calling whenever you fight continue to happen, then your marriage will fail."
"It stops now. ESH." ~ HappySummerBreeze
"ESH hear me out people now have never been to a baby shower where men weren't allowed I had men at mine."
"Now the wife is entitled to have a men-free baby shower if she wants but forcing OP out of his own home for 10 hours is an AH move."
"If it had been 3-4 hours then sure but 10 is too much."
"OP is also the ah because of the whole I paid for it attitude and pushing none stop to attend."
"But seeing as the party lasted as long as it did I don't think it's such a big deal that he stayed home, he stayed away from the party at least." ~ DisneyLove1995
Well, OP, Reddit seems to have issues with everybody involved in this story.
A 10 HOUR baby shower? Goodness.
There must've been a way to compromise.
Hopefully, you can all just focus on the joy of the birth from here.
Good luck.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp