Everyone has different routines and standards for personal hygiene.
That said, there is a basic level of hygiene widely agreed to be the standard for what people should do.
When people don't meet this bare minimum, it's reasonable to call them out.
Even though they might not take the feedback gracefully.
The sister-in-law (SIL) Redditor GothMoleRat tended to bring an odor with her wherever she went.
An odor that had finally become too much for the original poster (OP), eventually leading to a confrontation with her.
A confrontation that did not end up going well for either of them.
Having some doubts about how she handled this, the OP took to the subReddit "Am I The A**hole" (AITA), where she asked fellow Redditors:
"AITA for telling my SIL that I don't can't about her health condition and she needs to shower?"
The OP explained why she felt compelled to confront her SIL about her lingering odor:
"My SIL has a health condition that causes her to sweat more than average, she can nothing at all physically but still be sweating bullets, it can even be cold out and she still breaks a sweat."
"This is something that I've always known about her since we started talking back in high school, and although we weren't super close back then, it was something I could live with."
"Now flash forward to modern day, and I'm now with her brother, and she often likes to stop by very often since we live very close together, which I absolutely don't mind since she's overall a sweet person and likes to bring free food."
"The only issue is that she smells, like absolutely foul."
"I knew she wasn't the most hygienic person sometimes out of forgetfulness, but after she moved out of her parents' house and nobody is there to remind her to shower, put on deodorant, brush her teeth, etc., you can clearly tell she doesn't do any of that nearly as much as she should."
"Now anytime she comes over her smell erks me, after she leaves I open all the windows in the apartment and spray the entire place down, I have to fight myself from gagging whenever she goes to hug me, and sometimes I can barely be around her for dinners without her body odor grossing me out too much to even focus on the food."
"This was the exact case while we were all out at dinner together, where her smell at some point was bad, that I had to go to the bathroom to throw up, and at that point, I completely had enough of her stench."
"After dinner, I pulled her aside and tried my best to gently explain to her that she REALLY needs to shower and put on deodorant since she smells awful."
"Her reaction?"
"To remind me that she can't help it due to her health condition since she'd just sweat through all of her deodorant, not even halfway through the day."
"That's when I flat out told her I don't care about her health condition and that if anything, because of it, she should be even more hygienic, even going as far as to offer to buy her deodorant and soap if it means she just uses it."
"She ended up breaking down crying about how she can't help her condition, and she doesn't understand why I'm being so mean to her."
"Did I point it nicely?"
"Absolutely not, but it's starting to drive me insane that every time I'm around her, she smells like a barnyard."
"So now I need to know if I'm in the wrong for this one."
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation, by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
The Reddit community was in agreement that the OP was not the a**hole for confronting her SIL.
While some felt the OP didn't need to be quite as forward with her SIL, they agreed this was something she needed to hear, as it likely required more than deodorant or a shower and probably needed medical attention.
"NTA."
"I have hyperhidrosis."
"I take medication that helps massively with this."
"There are sooo many ways to cope with hyperhidrosis."
"The medication is oxybutynin."
"I also use clinical antiperspirant (I find the gel kind works better than solid or soft solid) and Lume body wash and cream deodorant."
"There are other meds available."
"In the US, it requires a prescription."
"Dunno about other places."- KatiePotatie1986
"There are prescription antiperspirants!"
"You apply them to dry skin at night and it blocks your sweat glands."
"Also if it's really bad then can get Botox!"
"NTA!"
"But I hope the free food she brings over isn't prepared by her."
"If you say she has bad hygiene then you know she's not washing her hands when she cooks."- Ok-Yogurtcloset-4378
"NTA."
"Her parents should have dealt with this long ago."
"They and others in her life who tolerated it did her no favors."
"I do think you should talk to her again and tell her you do care about her, but if she wants to come into your home and spend time with you, then she has to stay clean."
"You should get on the same page with your husband before you talk to her, and agree on how you'll handle it when she tests you to see if you really are going to enforce it."
"You should."
"She can of course, live her life however she chooses, but not necessarily in your vicinity."-NotThisAgain234
"Maybe her brother should talk to her."
"NTA."- wren_boy1313
"NTA."
'I have hyperhidrosis and carry deodorant around with me so I can reapply."
"I also carry an extra shirt to change."
"There are medications to take to help it."
"I also wash my armpits with antibacterial soap every other day."
"Clinical strength deodorant can help (I use men's deodorant because men smell stronger, so I figure it helps more)."
"I know body odor is a taboo subject, but my brother and sister don't take care to mask the odor and it's HORRIBLE."
"Nobody likes the smell of a rank armpit in the middle of summer."
"I live in an area where people commonly don't wear deodorant, and it SUCKS."
"As long as you brought it up gently, I don't see a problem."- Miserable-Note5365
"NTA."
"I don't know if the people who are saying otherwise don't shower and know they smell bad and are projecting or what because while I understand that the sister-in-law has that condition, we're talking about the fact that since she's been living alone and has no one to remind her to shower, she smells so much worse, so bad, that OP had to go and throw up because of the smell."
"I couldn't be around someone that smell that bad on a regular basis."- Ludaes
There were some, however, who had trouble sympathizing with either the OP or her SIL, feeling the OP was too blunt, and her SIL should be taking better care of herself:
"ESH."
"She should still be taking care of herself and putting forth effort even with the condition."
"But is this the first time you've talked to her about it?"
"Maybe she wasn't fully aware of how bad it is because she's used to it, and you came out of nowhere harshly telling her to do more."
"Saying that you didn't care about her condition was insensitive."
"You made her cry over something she can't have but so much control over."
"You're tired of it, I get it, but you could have been a lot more polite about it."
"She should still put in some sort of effort to help her hygiene regardless."- LunaMay196
The OP later returned with an update, sharing some more information regarding her SIL's situation, as well as where things currently stood between her and her BIL:
"I decided to make an edit since there's more context to it."
"I've told her before about her smelling bad, more gently than now."
"From multiple times of offering her perfumes and asking if she plans on seeking a professional to having to come over to her house to buy her deodorants and soaps since she won't buy them on her own often times since she views buying scented body washes or deodorants as a waste of time and money."
"Her parents for years have also run into this same issue, for which they've offered help, but she'd refuse to take it since she didn't want to deal with it and has just accepted it as a part of her life."
"I have gone back and apologized, we had a long talk about things, and she agreed to start working on her hygiene in exchange for me doing right and not acting like that again."
Being told you smell so bad that it's challenging to even be in your presence is not something anyone wants to hear.
Even if this news didn't need to be broken as indelicately as the OP broke it to her SIL, this was news she nonetheless needed to hear.
Hopefully, leading her to eventually seek a doctor's help.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp