Even in our progressive, more accepting age, coming out to one's friends and family remains an emotional, often difficult right of passage.
For one thing, it forces LGBTQ peple of all ages to more or less fess up to something which is innately part of who they are.
Something straight people are not forced to do.
Sadder still, some people are justifiably worried that their friends and family may no longer accept them when they are told this information.
A worry which seemed to face the brother of Redditor ver03255, who grew up in a strict, conservative household.
What the young man seemed to be unaware of, however, was that the original poster (OP) already knew, and wanted to let him know that he still loved and supported him.
Wondering if he'd be out of line for letting his younger brother know this, the OP took to the subReddit "Would I Be The A**Hole" (WIBTA), where he asked fellow Redditors:
"WIBTA if I told my brother that I know about his sexual preference?"
The OP shared how he inadvertently discovered that his younger brother was involved in a same-sex relationship, and didn't know how to handle this knowledge.
"I am a 24-year-old straight male and my brother is 17 years old."
"We grew up in a deeply Catholic household, so our parents are very, umm, traditional."
"It came to a point where when I was watching 'Game of Thrones' and there was a gay sex scene, my dad asserted that we never watch that show again."
"Fast forward to yesterday."
"My brother usually borrows my iPad to do some schoolwork."
"He naturally used a messaging app to talk with his classmates, but he often forgets to log out, no biggie, I just log it out when it's my turn to use it."
"However, last night, I saw a notification I didn't mean to read."
"It said, 'good night, babe!' followed by kiss and heart emojis."
"This was from a guy who we thought was just his best friend."
"Now I know he could be gay or bi or whatever, and I don't have any problems with that."
"I also respect his privacy, and I totally understand that I should not out him if he's not yet ready."
"However, with all the news about the mental health of teenagers lately, I'm afraid of what keeping this to himself would do to him."
"Also, because of my parents' disposition about these things, I'm afraid that my brother won't ever have the courage or be comfortable enough to ever open up to us."
"I just want him to know that he has an ally in me and that I'll love him no matter what."
"We're a close family, but we're not vocal about emotional things."
"I've never said 'I love you" to anyone at home, we just know it'."
"That's why no matter how subtle or casual I try to talk to him about this, it would surely be a big moment for us and he might just feel really unsafe and/or uncomfortable."
"So, WIBTA if I told him I know about his sexual preference?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You’re The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
Everyone agreed that the OP was not the a**hole for wanting to tell his brother that he knew he was gay and supported him.
However, most people also cautioned him that he shouldn't out his brother, but rather let his brother come out to him, and then share his love and support, or that he should subtly share that he has his love and support without sharing that he knew.
"Definitely NTA."
"But don’t out him."
"Just let him know that you love him no matter what, yes use the L word, and that he can always talk to you about anything."- clangin813
"NAH."
"You’re trying to be supportive and show love to your brother regardless if he is gay, bi, or straight and questioning."
"Puberty is a confusing time for anyone, not only to be growing up in a household with such a strong stance against homosexual representation."
"I will say that as a gay man, if I had been shown support by my brother or one of my parents in any way it might now have taken until I was dragged out of the closet at 22 to come out to them."
"The problem is that the message from his best friend doesn’t actually tell you anything about either of their sexual orientations."
"Yes, you could assume that the ‘babe,’ ‘love you,’ and kissing emojis means that they are a couple and dating in secret."
"For purposes of being contrarian, I will say that it could mean that the best friend is gay, and feels comfortable around your brother."
"I know in my experience there have been friends I have called honey, said I love you too with heart emojis that have been very straight but that I simply felt comfortable telling them these things to because I knew they wouldn’t freak out that I loved them platonically and treasured their friendship."
"Other comments have given you great advice about 'walking the walk' and basically showing up not just for your brother but for all LGBTQ+ people when the opportunity presents itself."
"If your brother is gay or bisexual, it tells him that you’ll step up to bat for him anytime he needs you, and that at a minimum you’ll always be there for him."
"For a lot of LGBTQ+ teens that’s all they really want."
"Another option that I’m hesitant to fully recommend is letting him know you saw the notification and that you didn’t mean to, and just let him know you’re there for him whatever it means."
"This could be more awkward because it relies on many assumptions about your brother and his friend that might not be true, and may lead to your brother being more secretive and feeling like he can’t trust you."
"Again, I will reiterate that your brother is lucky to have you, and if he is gay he will need someone to support him and show up for him."
"By doing research and coming from a place of concern for his mental health and considering the environment he’s in, I really commend you for being so empathetic instead of what easily could have resulted in a place of judgment."
"If your parents are expressing homophobic ideology, they likely expressed it to you as well and you could’ve easily defaulted to that and judged your brother instead of trying to support him."
"If you have any questions or you/your brother want advice on how to navigate this, please feel free to DM me!"- Nayr1230
"When I was in high school, my very very very good friend was clearly gay to me."
"One day, I mentioned to them that I knew they were gay and not to worry, that I would keep it to myself."
"They freaked out on me, said I had no idea what I was talking about, how could I possibly say that, and that was the abrupt end of our friendship."
"Our friendship was an incredible loss to me, I mourned the loss of it and felt so horrible I had messed it up."
"Years later, our paths crossed again, and my friend told me that he was gay and proud to be able to state that aloud."
"He said I was right, but it terrified him that others, me, could see so obviously what he was trying to hide from his family because he knew they would not accept him."
"If I could 'see' his gayness, that meant others would too, and that loss of control was something he could not afford, hence the freak out."
"My heart broke again, but this time for what my dear friend went through back then, the emotional and mental trauma at not being able to share his truth freely."
"What I’m trying to convey OP, is that letting someone who is not able or ready to come out that know you know is a very dangerous and risky thing."
"Yes, your brother may benefit from knowing he has your support, but the other side of that is that him knowing you know his secret and could potentially use it to out him might be too frightening of a concept for him."
"I don’t know what the right thing is here - whether to risk telling him or not."
"I wanted to share my perspective do that as you decide, you can have this point of view to reference."
"Good luck, OP."- battery21percent
"The thing is, you don't actually know what his preference is."
"So don't tell him you do: you'd just be one more person imposing expectations on him."
"What you can do is tell him that you saw the notification, that you're not sure what it means but that you'll support him regardless, and he can talk to you if he wants."
"Leave it at that."
"It'll be awkward for both of you, so give yourselves time to shake it off."
"And then, act on it."
"Don't cringe at gay scenes on TV, don't differentiate between heterosexual and homosexual couples."
"Stand up to your parents if the topic arises."
"Not necessarily into a full blown fight, but enough to show your brother that you can walk the walk, and take the fight upon yourself if necessary."- magneac
"YWNBTA, but I would be very careful how I approached this."
"You don't necesarily need to tell him how you came to find out about his sexuality."
"You could find a LGBT news headline or something and use that as a reason to state to him you have no issues with gay or bisexual people, and do everything but outright say you are a safe haven for him."
"Let him come out on his own terms, and just make it known you'd be the type of person who would be in his corner if he did."- McSquishin
The OP shared in an update that he followed the advice of the Reddit community, to show his support for the LGBTQ community, and that his brother eventually caught on to his knowledge.
"So, most of you told me that I should just voice out my support for the LGBT community instead of directly talking to my brother about his sexuality."
"This was very helpful as I did not want him to feel pressured to come out."
"When I wrote my original post, I was already watching 'Schitt's Creek', which had non-straight main characters."
"This was really convenient because I could simply say remarks like 'Awww, they make a really nice couple' and 'Wow, I wish my relationship with my gf was like that'."
"I also asked my bro about Pride month, he has been going to marches as an ally for the past few years with his out friends."
"I asked him 'Hey, what's their plan for Pride month during quarantine?'"
"'Too bad they can't hold the march, I was thinking of joining'."
"I didn't really know how to be subtle, okay."
"When our parents went grocery shopping last weekend, that's when he told me."
"'You already know, don't you?'"
"I knew what he was asking but I tried to play dumb."
"'You know, that I'm gay, right?'"
"I just said yes, told him about the iPad incident, and hugged him."
"He cried and asked me not to tell our parents, which of course I agreed to."
"He then asked if this changes anything between us, to which I replied 'Of course, now you have to give me better fashion advice!'
"I make jokes when I'm emotional, okay."
"I told him he has my support no matter what, and that I can help him come out to our parents when he's ready."
"I also told him that he and his boyfriend, which he confirmed, are a great couple, then I reminded him that they should always be 'safe'."
"Giving sex advice to my brother was VERY awkward."
"That's it."
"He's still annoying as hell, because, you know, he's my brother, but I've never seen him happier, and I can really feel that a burden has been lifted off his shoulders."
"Thanks, everyone!"
Even if they know deep down who they really are, no one should be pressured to come out when they're not ready to.
And should someone come out to you, it's always important to remember that nothing is different, they are still very much who they always were.
The best thing we can do is love them even more than we already do.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp