Informed Consent is the idea that you need to have all the relevant information presented to you in order to make a decision.
The idea being that faulty information leads to faulty decisions.
So, what happens when you make an agreement only to later realize that you were agreeing to faulty information and when you back out, you're shamed for it?
That was the issue facing Redditor and Original Poster (OP) Beneficial-Most-6523 when she came to the "Am I the A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for judgment.
She asked:
"AITA for not checking in on my brother's surrogate when I went on a bachelorette party in Cancun?"
First the good news.
"One of my best friends is having her bachelorette party in Cancun, Mexico and this is my first time outside of Niagara Falls ever leaving the country and I am super excited to go."
"I told my family this, and my older brother is like oh can you please check in on our surrogate she is in Cancun."
"When I first heard it, I was like sure."
Then it got complicated.
"But then, I found out that his surrogate is 2 Hours' drive from Cancun and doesn't live in the safest neighborhood, and I would need to get a driver."
"Also the bachelorette party has a full itinerary, and I am only there for 3.5 days."
"I told my brother that I won't be able to make it and he freaks out at me and is like, you don't care about family. What happens if Mary (fake name for surrogate) house is filthy and your future niece is born sickly."
"He starts going on how it's not even a big deal and starts saying what is more important, having fun with friends or family? "
"To me, it really rubbed me the wrong way. For one if he cares so much, he can fly down there right now."
"His partner is much older and really wealthy, and they go on vacation every couple of months, and they just came back from Portugal, like they could have gone to check in on our surrogate ."
"And FWIW, they already have her sharing her location and have her send a picture of each meal she eats, and they even got her a Fitbit."
"Like they are tracking her so much, me not checking in on her house is not gonna change anything."
" I know I initially said yes, but to me, I feel like they are being really unfair here."
In the end, OP was left to wonder,
"AITA?"
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
-
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided: NTA
The brother's situation seems odd.
"NTA but am I the only one who feels weird about Americans using a surrogate in Mexico?" ~ HorrorParsnip
"I feel the same."
"Not to mention that the brother and partner are really wealthy, and the surrogate is clearly from a more deprived 'unsafe area' with a possibly 'filthy' house."
"The whole thing stinks of buying desperate women's bodies. ~ Radiant-Idea-2261
"Yeah, and them being so incredibly creepy about it too."
"I know that there possibly exists surrogacy that's actually good, but such a large part of it is just buying women's bodies (edit: not to mention, buying children)."
"And it is so gross, and the way people seem to handwave it away is chilling." ~ ActuallyParsley
"The fact that the partner is well off and they're using someone in another country is really giving me some gross vibes."
"I've seen a couple of viral videos about it, and it feels dystopian." ~ noblestromana
Some focused on the question itself.
"Uh NO."
"Enjoy your trip."
"If they're that interested in where/how she lives, one of them can take a couple days and make the trip. It's selfish to try to infringe on your getaway on what would be considered a party weekend."
"Don't feel bad!" ~ Hot-Low1673
"NTA."
"If he's worried about her, he can go visit her. It's not reasonable to expect you to add a 2-hour trip to an already-full schedule" ~ AshdoesArtandAmi
"NTA"
"Enjoy your trip."
"Your brother is taking advantage of this surrogate relationship to go well beyond any reasonable boundaries."
"I'm wondering what kind of contract they have, if at all, that permits this kind of invasive behavior." ~ PuzzleheadedGoal8234
"NTA"
"You're going for one reason. The bachelorette party/festivities."
"Enjoy your getaway."
"Your brother is TA for wanting you to travel ALONE in an unsafe area for any reason."
'"NO' is a complete answer."
"DON'T do this. This is not your concern."
"If he & partner are that concerned about their shady af surrogate deal, THEY can go check on her themselves." ~ MizPeachyKeen
"The audacity of the brother!"
"If he was worried about the surrogates living arrangements, he should have checked it all out before impregnating her!"
"It's his responsibility to do all these checks before choosing the surrogate... If he cared about his own child, he'd go check it out himself!"
"I look forward to these parents being posted in Entitled Parents because I doubt their demand for you to check up on their child won't just stop here."
"They're going to demand babysitting and all sorts of things from you... Good luck."
"NTA" ~ West-Kaleidoscope129
"What's more important is your friend because you are only in Cancun for HER bachelorette party."
"Your trip for the bride is already fully scheduled and does not include the time for trying to hire a driver and a minimum round trip of four hours for your brother's concerns." ~ vhtg
Some had logistical questions.
"What is OP supposed to do if she finds the surrogate lives in a dirty house?"
"Demand she is allowed to clean it?"
"Buy her a new house?"
"A surrogate for a wealthy family in New York that lives 2 hours away from Cancun sounds incredibly sketchy."
"Where's she having the baby?"
"How do they obtain said baby?"
"What if she says NAH - you can't have my Mexican baby - do you go to the Mexican authorities and demand she hands over a baby for you to leave the country with?"
"It's gross." ~ KnotDedYeti
"If it's arranged with a legit agency or legal contract, she wouldn't be allowed to change her mind about keeping the baby."
"My understanding is that's basically 'industry standard' for surrogacy."
"It's to help prevent cases where a surrogate extorted money."
"But the ethical standards can be all over the case with these, especially if no one bothered to explain the contract before the surrogate committed."
"No idea what the legal options would look like in an international case like this, but they could probably wreck her life with lawsuits if she did try to challenge the terms."
"Sounds like they have the income." ~ Bubblegrime
"NTA-"
"Was he going to give you the money for a driver there and back? (At least $200, probably more.)"
"Would he pay for an extra day at the resort and a flight change?"
"And how was the visit supposed to go exactly?"
"Hi, I understand you're incubating my niece, and my brother asked me to check and make sure you aren't living in filth and squalor?"
"Bad idea all around!"
"It sounds like your brother doesn't see you as a family if he's so willing to send you on such a random errand to a small village somewhere 'near' Cancun with no thought or concern for your safety or the logistics of it all." ~ Only_Music_2640
"Omg NTA."
"How does he reasonably expect you to navigate 2 hours out of the way in a country you've never visited alone?"
"He must know that your friends on the trip with you also wouldn't have time or want to take a 2 hour trip."
"Plus their financial situation and having a poor woman in Mexico carry their child while clearly not providing for her during her pregnancy is so gross." ~ SpaceQwitch
Which led to a discussion of Surrogacy in general.
"I have heard of a few viewpoints lately that make me more and more uneasy about adoption and surrogacy."
"They are both multi-billion dollar industries set up to fulfill the needs of desperate parents, and they give very little thought to the feelings of the babies or vulnerable mothers they are exploiting."
"I know that there are people going into it with good intentions, but it's all leaving a really bad taste in my mouth." ~ dierdrerobespierre
"It's not a popular stance, but unless it's for friends or family, I think surrogacy is entirely unethical."
"It's worse when it's done by women who ARE capable of carrying children but don't want to take the risk of complications or 'ruin' their bodies."
"It grosses me out that they pay other, often poor women to do so for a selfish wish (wanting children is selfish by default and I have them myself)." ~ Agreeable_Spite
"Fully agree."
"Altruistic surrogacy (when no payment is made) may be fine, though that should also be regulated."
"Commercial, never."
"To those who say it's fine if the surrogate freely chooses it, do you think poverty never forces people to do things they would never do unless the alternative would be to starve or be homeless (and their kids, too)?"
"Would it be OK to allow people to sell their kidneys to the highest bidder?" ~ Intrepid_Respond_543
The thread itself poses lots of questions about the power of money, bodily autonomy, and the role of surrogacy in our society.
As to the question of whether it's okay to back out of a deal you didn't grasp the full magnitude of?
Yes. Yes, it is.
Informed consent only works if you have all the information available.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp