Not all of us want to look back and remember the teen years, and for good reason. For some, high school is the absolutely worst season of their lives, and it's best left in the past.
That's often due to not being able to find a social group where we feel like we belong, reasoned the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITA) subReddit.
Redditor Ok-Combination7341 could see that their younger daughter was struggling after losing the only friend that she had, while her older sister was popular.
But when their partner encouraged the older sister to invite her sister to the popular table at lunch time, the Original Poster (OP) wasn't convinced that was the right approach, either.
They asked the sub:
"AITA for siding with my daughter that she doesn't need to invite her sister to the 'popular table'?"
The OP's daughters were in very different friend groups.
"Both of my daughters are in high school. My oldest (Cindy) is 16 and my youngest (Emily) is 14."
"Cindy is quite popular, she is on the volleyball team and has a huge friend group."
"My youngest isn't very popular and her friend (Beth) is her main friend or ex-friend."
"It also doesn't help that she is into hobbies most other high schoolers don't care about (knitting, tree-shaping, and art club, which she recently quit)."
The OP's younger daughter, Emily, recently needed some company.
"Emily and Beth got into a fight and Beth is not speaking to her anymore."
"Emily is sitting alone at lunch now."
"This came out yesterday and my husband wants Cindy to invite her to sit with her group of friends at the 'popular table.'"
"Cindy refused saying she doesn't want to do that."
"My husband was mad but when he tried to get me to back him up, I told him Cindy has every right to not want her little sister in her friend group. I told him that he couldn't do that to her and that Emily needed to make her own friends."
The OP had other reasons for not forcing Cindy to include Emily.
"I just think Emily should have her own friends, not have to be forced to include her and force her friend groups to accept her."
"She is allowed to have her own friends not attached to other family members."
"I don't think that will help it it will cause resentment, also now half the week it's clear she is only getting an invite and it becomes more clear that the group doesn't want you there."
"I think it's a lot worse to sit with people you know they don't want you there and your invite being a pity invite."
"Also, I can't control her friends. What if Cindy loses a friend for trying to force her sister into the group?"
"This just sounds like a s**t situation in all. Even worse, what if they talk about something sensitive in the group and Emily uses it in a future argument between them?"
"This isn't a good idea."
The family was divided over the situation.
"My husband is p**sed at me and Cindy."
"Emily is super upset that she doesn't have people to eat with."
"And now I am wondering if I made the right call or if I am being a jerk."
"AITA?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
Some agreed with the OP that Emily needed to find her own way.
"NTA. And I know what it feels like, my parents made me do it. My brother had fewer friends than me, and my father forced me to eat with him every day."
"Of course, I'd gather some friends to the table. They were nice to my brother but weren't very interested in him since we had a few years of age difference. My brother always tried to bring attention to himself and was angry when I wouldn't do something with him in public."
"My friends made me understand that his presence was not appreciated."
"Even if it seems hard for Emily, I'm sure she'll find a few friends to build her own circle, even if it takes some time." - Leornado10
"NTA You can't fix this for her. There are introverts and extroverts in the world. Emily may be upset, but it is part of growing up and people are different. Guide her where you can, but you are a guide and not a fixer. Don't overparent." - Lynfran
"NTA. Emily needs to make her own friends who share her views and interests."
"I moved after middle school and started high school without friends for a while, I ate alone for about a month before I found a club that interested me, joined it, and made friends there."
"Neither daughter is going to be happy if Emily is wedged into her sister's friend group. Why would Emily enjoy spending time with kids she doesn't share interest with?" - thaliagorgon
"My sister is a year older so we were consistently in the same schools. I have almost no memories of her in our high school. I don't associate her with school at all. We had our own lives and friends. We are literally best friends now and spend most of our time together. We still have our own friends for the most part though."
"Even as the younger sibling, I would've hated if my parents tried to force us together and it probably would have stopped us from becoming so close now that we're in our 30s."
"NTA OP, you are right that your daughter needs to find her own way because her sister will not be around soon and then she'll have lost time when she could've found some really good friends. Some people, me being one of them, struggle to make good friends, but if they don't try, then it'll just hurt them in the future." - Mo-2s2
"NTA. I found my best friend bc my sister finally kicked me away from her group during my freshman year of high school. It's been almost 15 years and we're like family. Emily needs friends, but her sister's friends aren't the answer." - No-Engineering-2638
"You are NTA but what are you doing to help your younger daughter? When you say she has hobbies that most other people her age aren't into, what do you mean? Is she on the spectrum or struggling with social interaction or is she simply a more shy introverted young lady?"
"The trouble with only having one friend is that when you fall out, you end up alone and feeling like crap. Your youngest is in the shadow of her popular pretty volleyball-playing sister and now her only friend has fallen out with her. The answer isn't to hang out with her older sister's friend group but to find other social outlets and make more friends who are into similar things."
"She's growing older and it's normal to grow apart from friends as she changes and settles more into her own skin, but it must sting to feel like she's the ugly unpopular little sister who can't keep a friend." - Lulubelle__007
"This is essentially what happens with our kids. Our daughter (16) is quite outgoing and has several friends; our son (15) is not outgoing, autistic, and doesn't have many friends IRL at all (most are online - yes, we make sure he's safe). He sits at lunch on his own most days and he says he doesn't mind, but there are times that he gets upset that his sister has so many friends when he doesn't."
"I can't imagine telling our daughter to force her to bring him over, so we don't do that. However, every now and then, she leaves her friend group to sit with her brother to let him know that he's not alone."
"He really appreciates that and she doesn't mind because regardless of how annoying she thinks he is, she's very protective of him (going as far as punching one of his bullies... he hasn't been bullied since)."
"I'd absolutely say NTA, but if they have a relationship that's close enough, perhaps ask your daughter if she'd be okay with giving up a lunch with her friends every so often in order to help her sister not feel so alone."
"If she says no, then don't push it. But it doesn't hurt to ask." - AllowMe-Please
But others felt the OP was missing the bigger issue than the popular table.
"YTA."
"You don't have to force your one daughter to accept your other daughter into her friend group. You are correct. But how do you not see the bigger issue?"
"You have a daughter who is lonely and isolated. You have another daughter who apparently shows absolutely no empathy towards her own sister. I had varying relationships with each my siblings but one thing I can guarantee you is that I wouldn't have let any of them sit by themselves at lunch with no friends."
"How would this not concern you as a parent? Is high school social dynamics so important to you and your one daughter that you would condone this behavior? That's what your response indicates." - AllDawgsGoToDevin
"I think OP should try and raise her older daughter with some compassion. Here is a thought. Why doesn't the older sister go and sit with her younger sister (without her popular friends) just to give her sister some support?"
"Seems like op favors her popular daughter. I wonder if she would be okay if the roles were reversed YTA op and your popular daughter." - excaliber2022
"YTA."
"What kind of sister/mother would be okay with seeing her family alone like that in high school? There is no reason why she couldn't hang out at that table until she finds her own friends."
"In my opinion, this comes down to what's more important to you to instill in your children, family or popularity?" - askewboka
"Soft YTA. I don't this abandonment by her own sister, older sister can learn to be kinder. This whole thread is so American individualistic thinking 'figure out on your own' in a 'dog eat dog world.'"
"We all will have battles in this world but there's nothing wrong with showing kindness and leaning on each other in time of need."
"Eating alone at lunch is so traumatic." - NTX_Mom
"YTA. I taught my kids growing up, family first, love, respect, and protect each other. My son and daughter, they are two and a half years apart. They have been best friends since childhood. He officiated her wedding. You did not set a precedent while they were growing up." - 68Snowflakes
"YTA."
"Emily will remember that you put Cindy's popularity above helping her feel less s**tty and alone."
"No, Cindy doesn't have to permanently integrate Emily into her social circle, but she should be kind enough to temporarily offer her younger sister a spot at the table (and even, God forbid, have enough integrity to defend her family if her popular friends start being s**tty to her sister)." - bluejaybby
"It certainly sounds like OP favors Cindy over Emily. I don't see any compassion for Emily in the post; just concern that Cindy's popularity isn't affected."
"If Cindy loses a friend because she included her sister at the lunch table, is that the type of friend that Cindy should care about?"
"And what the h**l does 'even worse they talk about something sensitive in the group and Emily uses it in a future argument' even mean? Do these girls fight often? What would even be discussed over lunch that Emily could bring up?"
"IT'S LUNCH AT HIGH SCHOOL. It's not parties on the weekend and every social event. The compassionate thing for Cindy to do would be to explain to her friends that her younger sister is having a hard time and could she sit with them at lunch until she makes some friends her own age?"
"OP, the other thing that really bothers me about your post and your defense of Cindy is the lack of concern about what this could do to Cindy and Emily's relationship long-term. Cindy has the opportunity to be a compassionate big sister and is choosing not to be. Hopefully, this doesn't drive a permanent wedge between them."
"Family should be more important than high school popularity contests. YTA." - Miserable-Arm-6797
This was one of those situations where there wasn't a perfect yes or no answer to give, and it was more about priorities than anything else.
Some agreed with the OP that Emily needed to find her own way to encourage her individuality, independence, and surrounding herself with like-minded people.
But others felt this was more of an issue of support and empathy, both of which some felt the OP and her older daughter were lacking.
It was clear Emily needed to try to find some new friends, but it was unclear how she would feel about her family when she looked back on this moment in the future.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp