Teenagers and love.
What a messy situation.
People don't like being teased about their possible love interests.
This can be an issue at any age, but it's especially dramatic for the younger generations.
Hormones are running amok and nobody knows how they really feel.
But those feelings don't excuse bad behavior.
Case in point...
Redditor motherbeeee wanted to discuss her experience and get some feedback. So naturally, she came to visit the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit.
She asked:
"AITA for punishing my son for his, 'preferences?'"
The Original Poster (OP) explained:
"I (41 F[emale]) have 2 children, 14 M[ale] and 11 M from my previous marriage."
"My 14-year-old is the subject of this post."
"I'll call him Andrew."
"Andrew has recently begun his first year of high school."
"He doesn't have a lot of friends because we live closer to a different high school than most of his former classmates ended up at."
"Luckily one of his very close friends from a few years back goes to his school."
"A girl I will call Dana."
"They have become close again over the last 6ish weeks."
"They spend time together at school and she has been coming over on weekends, or him at her house."
"Andrew talks about her a lot. "
"To be honest, I thought they had crushes on each other."
"By the way, Dana is mixed black with Vietnamese and we are white."
"Unfortunately that is relevant."
"Last weekend Dana was over for dinner. "
"Things were going normally until my 11-year-old made a joke about Dana being Andrew's girlfriend."
"He and my husband have been lightly teasing Andrew for a couple of weeks about Dana being his girlfriend and he always denies it hotly."
"That night after my 11-year-old's joke, Andrew not only denied it but spouted a, 'I DON'T LIKE BLACK GIRLS!' loudly for the entire table to hear, including Dana."
"I was stunned."
"Dana looked highly embarrassed."
"I knew in the moment I would talk to him later, but just for the time being said something like, 'Hey, that isn't cool.'"
"The remainder of dinner was very awkward and then Dana left."
"Once she was gone I told Andrew how he probably hurt Dana's feelings."
"I explained how black women and girls already struggle with feeling accepted in society, and that he was ignoring the other half of her race entirely."
"Not to mention the bad example he was setting for his brother."
"He went into defensive mode and said he just thinks dark girls are 'ugly' and is tired of people at home and at school thinking he would date, 'someone like her.'"
"After that conversation, I told him that he was grounded until he offered Dana a sincere apology and made an effort to learn about misogynoir through reading."
"I then told him that if I were Dana, I would not want to be his friend anymore after his racist remarks."
"To my astonishment, this has been unpopular with my ex as well as my current husband."
"My current husband is Puerto Rican, so I was doubly surprised he didn't side with me."
"They both say that Andrew is entitled to his own preferences when it comes to girls and I am wrong to punish him."
"I took it more seriously from my current husband who has been on the receiving end of racism."
"I now do not know what to do. "
"Andrew has apologized to D, but has yet to find a good book on misogyny and read it."
The OP was left to wonder:
"Am I wrong for punishing him? Should I let him off the hook? AITA?"
Redditors shared their thoughts on this matter and weighed some options to the question AITA:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Many Redditors declared OP was NOT the A**hole.
"It isn't about 'preferences,' it's about humiliating Dana."
"Your sons are both in the wrong: 11 M for cracking wise at the table about 'girlfriends,' and Andrew's massive overreaction with heavy notes of racism."
"This makes me wonder if he doesn't have feelings of a kind for Dana."
"Disappointing that both the dads are dismissing this as 'preference.'"
"The only AHs here are the Y-chromosome bearers." ~ Inner-Show-1172
"You have to remember that a lot of times if a topic is repeatedly being used to tease someone it's eventually not gonna be harmless."
"Eventually that person gonna break and that's exactly what happened to your son."
"That tease is what broke the camelback for him."
"You should have a sit-down conversation with him and he needs to communicate if something he is being teased about is bothering him." ~ lilwildjess
OP responded...
"I wondered as well if his strong reaction is because he does have a crush on Dana."
"Maybe I should have taken my 11-year-old's teasing more seriously."
"I thought it was just playful and harmless, but thinking about it now I could have said something about that."
Reddit continued...
"Actually going to go against the grain here a little."
"ESH except Dana."
"Yes what your son said was rude and he needs to apologize for what he said."
"On the flip side, why is no one respecting a 14-year-old in his own home?"
"He said he's not interested and to stop multiple times by your own account."
"Why is everyone pushing a 'boys can't be friends with girls' narrative on him?"
"That same narrative that encourages toxic masculinity and sexism towards women?"
"The reason he had such a strong assertion is because everyone has been bullying him over this topic for weeks now."
"I would be worried about the message that is sending to both your sons."
"On top of the mindset of your current husband."
"People find humor in things they feel have at least a kernel of truth."
"Moreover it's not your place to decide your son's relationship status or his feelings."
"You just assumed he had a crush because he is hanging out with her a lot."
"You said so yourself he doesn't have a lot of friends."
"Humans are social creatures and naturally will socialize as much as possible."
"If they only have one or two people they will stick to them like glue by circumstance."
"Your bad assumptions made you complicit in allowing the bullying his father and brother were doing."
"All of this combined sends a message to your 14-year-old that his emotions do not matter."
"This is how we get incels."
"We teach men they can't just be friends with girls and that the only way they can have any emotion is sexual ones."
"Whether he has a crush on her or not does not matter."
"What matters is he needs to have the agency to be able to freely express his own emotions without pre-emptive judgment."
"That can't happen if you're assuming his emotions beforehand." ~ LeadingJudgment2
"NTA. Of course, your son is allowed to have his preferences, but the way he expressed them - in front of Dana - and afterward is unacceptable."
"Using words like he would never date 'someone like her' is just rude and racist."
"I understand that he is annoyed by people assuming, but a normal 'we are just friends and don't have romantic feelings for each other' would have done it and not also hurt his friend and demean her."
"Also AH by the way are our younger son and husband for 'teasing' your son for his close friendship with a girl."
"They should be punished too." ~ MadameMimmm
"NTA. 'Being entitled to your own preferences' doesn't mean being rude to those who don't 'fit' them."
"He could have asked to stop the teasing in kind."
"The friendship with the girl probably will end or at least they won't have the same trust." ~ Fuzzy_Biscotti_7959
"NTA. You are right and you're not punishing him for his preference."
"You're punishing him because of his attitude towards black girls."
"You can not be attracted to someone without acting the way he did."
"And as a black man, I gotta be honest, take your husband's take with a grain of salt."
"Puerto Rican people and most people of all racists regardless of if they have experienced racism don't understand the complexities of racism."
"Especially the more their society values whiteness."
"Latin and Hispanic communities that are considered black still perform misogynoir let alone if he's a white Puerto Rican."
"You can recognize the deeper complexities that he writes off."
"You're right, don't let him off. It's better to try to better his attitude now even if they disagree with you."
"Even if he doesn't like it, even if he still thinks that way, maybe that seed will bloom when he grows enough to understand why this is wrong." ~ nigrivamai
"NTA: He was cruel and awful to Dana."
"Honestly, I would have defended her more vehemently right in front of her."
"He was a terrible friend."
"He can have his preferences, but his attitudes are racist." ~ Beachrabbit123
OP came back to chat...
"Thank you everyone for your input."
"I want to say that I see now I was wrong to view the teasing as lighthearted when it upset my son and led to him lashing out."
"I feel the need to reaffirm that it was not me who personally was involved in the teasing, which seems to be a common misconception."
"That said, I haven't argued the point because I can see I was in the wrong for not putting an end to the teasing."
"And it makes me no better than if I were directly involved."
"I believe after this thread that I am justified in my punishment of my son for his racism, but for the rest, I owe him an apology just as he owed Dana one."
"I am going to follow through with the grounding, but I will have a talk with Andrew about what was going on and try to explain again why he was apologizing."
"I appreciate all of the recommendations on books and documentaries."
Well, OP, Reddit is with you, for the most part.
It sounds like your son does need some schooling on respect for others and attitude.
As does your younger son and husband.
Good luck.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp