The term "professional" can mean a lot of different things to different people and different world and work cultures.
Each workplace needs to establish their own rules about clothing and grooming. But in cases where the employee handbook doesn't spell it out, workers can create their own unofficial versions.
That's what one employee did, but now they're wondering if they're wrong.
So they turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback.
The Redditor asked:
"AITA for telling my brother his 3 foot long beard and hair is unprofessional?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"I work at a company in a position with some influence. My brother was looking for a job and I encouraged him to apply at my company. I wasn't a part of the process but thankfully he was offered the position."
The interview was conducted over a video call, so I know that the interview panel don't really have a clear idea of how long my brother's hair and beard really is. Both his beard and hair are around waist level, and are not particularly well kept."
"Most people who see it would likely assume he is homeless or in a cult. He has looked like this for a couple years and everyone we know (aside from him and his wife) think it's unattractive and creepy."
"We're talking Rasputin. Think undead warlock."
"Unfortunately, not an exaggeration."
"This is an office professional workplace, and a position that involves frequent interactions with the general public. The handbook doesn't specifically state exact hair or beard lengths, but it does say appearance should be neat and professional."
"So I told him (and his wife) that while he doesn't need to entirely cut off his beard or hair, he does need to trim at least a little off."
"I mentioned it to his wife and him in the same conversation because he will do whatever she says, and will not do whatever she says not to do. She commands every aspect of his life with an iron fist, so if I didn't include her in the conversation she'd be even more pissed at me."
"Long hair and long beard can look professional. The problem is far more about how he keeps his hair than how long it is."
"But a long beard and hair requires skillful maintenance to look nice, and he just doesn't have that. So if he doesn't have the skill to keep it nice, I figure it'd be easier to maintain if it were a little shorter."
"He could grow it as long as he likes, it doesn't bother me at all to be around him. I just wanted to convey to him that based on what I know I expect it will problematic at the job."
"But because my personal opinion is not unknown, my message was interpreted as being biased. I'm worried they're going to ask him to cut it, and I'm trying to save him the embarrassment by just telling him now."
"Well, his wife is absolutely outraged I dare even ask such a thing."
"She compared it to asking a fat person to lose weight, to ask a Muslim to cut his beard (which I don't think is actually a part of Islam, but whatever), forcing a trans-person to wear clothes that does not match their gender-identity, etc..."
"She says 'If a 12-inch beard is OK, why isn't a 3-foot-long beard?' I reply, the recipe says a teaspoon of salt, so of course 5 cups of salt is OK."
"She accused me of pretending it is company policy when it's actually about my personal disagreement with his appearance."
"While it's true that I have been open about how awful his beard appears, it's also true that the company does have a policy about appearing professional. And having a three-foot-long untamed, thin, dry, crispy beard is hard to justify as professional."
"On the one hand my sister-in-law claims this is a part of his identity and reflects his self-image, and on the other hand my brother claims he appears this way because he does not care about his appearance."
"I'm more inclined to believe him than her."
"I tried to explain that he could cut half his beard off and he'd still have an extremely long beard that matches his identity. But she's still absolutely offended."
"He hasn't started his job yet. And all I did was suggest he should tidy it up and get it looking neat. I didn't threaten him or anything like that."
"To be honest, I think she cares more about proving a point than what's actually best for my brother's health."
"She said if he sh*t in his pants she wouldn't make him change his clothes if he didn't want to. I do believe she sincerely loves him, but I think this is a form of abuse."
"AITA for honestly telling him his appearance is too unprofessional for his new job?"
The OP summed up their situation.
"I told my brother his hair, and especially his beard, is unprofessional."
"I think I could be the a**hole based on how outraged his wife is on my brother's behalf. My brother is a sensitive person, and his feelings are hurt very easily."
"I don't want to hurt his feelings, but I don't know how to tell him the truth in a way that might not hurt his feelings. My instincts tell me, based on how he reacted, that I hurt his feelings, and his wife is pissed at me for hurting his feelings."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors mostly felt the OP was the a**hole (YTA) or everyone sucks here (ESH).
"YTA. He was hired after a video call. They saw him. Mind your own business, OP." ~ Optycalillusion
"You come off as very pretentious, just saying."
"You weren't involved in the hiring process at all, so obviously the people who were involved didn't see a huge problem. And they may not have been able to see the FULL length of the beard or hair through the video call, but they can get a rough idea."
"If they have an issue with his appearance, they'll sort it out. It's not up to you. YTA." ~ mikeytruelove
"OP you knew what your brother looked like before you encouraged him to apply."
"You could have pre-empted this by saying to your brother he'd need a haircut if he got the job or even just by not mentioning your place of business as somewhere he could work."
"YTA and you did it to yourself." ~ Puzzleheaded-Tale-33
"YTA. If you thought it was an issue, you shouldn't have told him to apply." ~ hesathomes
"Just distance yourself from it."
"The company may not care at all, in which case, you don't want to have fought it as you will look like the AH to brother and his wife."
"The company may care and fire him or something, in which case, you don't want to be associated with the reason for that happening."
"I get that you're trying to help him and that you may feel like you have vouched for him and may reflect badly if he doesn't do well, but, you're here now so just let it run its course."
"As the suggestion has already been met with resistance, I don't see how you can turn that around in any positive way to yourself."
"I'm giving a light YTA as you advised bro to go for the job knowing how he looked and then tried to get him to change it only after he got the job. I get you were trying to help, but still, it's not really a good way to go about it."
"But also, it's a bit ESH as bro needs to grow up and understand corporate professional environments and bros wife needs to chill the f*ck out." ~ greasychickenparma
"I mean, he got the job fair and square with the hair and beard. If when he starts the job the company want him to tidy it up then let them tell him."
"I think it's sad you are embarrassed about your brother. Leave him be. YTA." ~ Anniemarsh69
"It sounds like you want to save YOU the embarrassment. This is not your call to make.
"This is not 'sight-unseen', and hey who knows, this job might encourage him to do something different about his appearance. But maybe not, and maybe that's okay with the people who hired him."
"And literally none of this is any of your business unless you choose to, as you did when you chose to encourage your brother to apply."
"What's your goal here, OP?"
"To shame your brother about his appearance? To force him to change how he looks so that the people who hired him don't think poorly of you?"
"Or to do both at the same time and still think you're a good person?" ~ SceneNational6303
"You don't think they have the ability to extrapolate that a beard so long it extends off-camera is probably very long?"
"You've warned him, and there's nothing else you can do. If the job doesn't like it, let them tell him. Regardless of how wrong he is, if you keep this argument going YTA." ~ TuckerCarlsonsOhface
"Are you his boss? Has his boss asked him to trim it? If the answer is no to both questions then YTA. Let him be him if he wants a 3ft glorious beard, then let him have it." ~ BeneficialPeppers
The OP returned with an update.
"It seems most of the replies are recommending I just let his direct supervisor handle it. So I guess I'll do that."
The OP probably picked the best option.
Too bad they didn't figure that out before they said anything to their brother.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp