No two people have the same standards when it comes to hygiene and cleanliness.
Some people are fine with the bare minimum, always washing their hands after leaving the bathroom, brushing their teeth twice a day, vacuuming once a week at most.
Others are far more diligent, washing their hands every time they enter a new building, never leaving home without hand sanitizer, and mopping and vacuuming every day, often multiple times.
More often than not, those who are more conscious about being neat and tidy aren't afraid to spill their judgment towards those with a more relaxed attitude than theirs.
Redditor Much-Caterpillar-623 was among those who liked things uber clean.
So, when the original poster (OP) saw her husband use a bathtub in what was, in her eyes, a horrifically unhygienic manner,
Wondering if she overreacted, the OP took to the subReddit "Am I The A**hole" (AITA), where she asked fellow Redditors:
"AITA for refusing to get in the tub after my husband stood in it with his outside flip flops?"
The OP explained why her desire to enjoy a long, hot bath quickly disappeared after seeing the way her husband cleaned the tub:
"My husband and I are on a trip at a B&B with a claw foot tub."
"I am a very clean person and generally paranoid about cleanliness standards of hotels."
"So I've sort of 'trained' my husband to wear flip-flops in hotels vs bare feet."
"We also wear flip-flops into showers or tubs that we don't plan to bathe in."
"But apparently, he thinks this applies to a tub we are about to bathe in as well."
"Tonight, we decided to bathe in the tub."
"He was about to use soap to wash the tub before the soak, but I noticed he'd worn his flip-flops to shower in the tub."
"These flip-flops have been out on the streets."
"The amount of germs and trash they brought made me 100% sure I wouldn't be taking a bath there."
"But he got upset at me instead - according to him, I'm making up new rules."
"I don't think I did because this is implied."
"It blows my mind that he thinks differently - am I AH for thinking this?"
"I think he should apologize for ruining a relaxing bath."
"He won't because he feels that he didn't do anything wrong and blames me for changing rules."
"So AITAH?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
The OP found little to no sympathy from the Reddit community, who all but unanimously agreed she was, indeed, the a**hole for the way she treated her husband.
Everyone agreed that the OP's expectations of cleanliness bordered on neurotic, with many wondering why she, herself, couldn't simply wash the tub again after her husband stepped in it in his flip-flops, and some even thinking she should seek professional help.
"My thoughts on this:"
"If you're so cleanliness obsessed, why would you _ever_ think of using the OUTSIDE dirty slippers as shower slippers."
"Just pack an extra one specific for the shower?"
"I'ver never heard of using your regular flip-flops for this."
"If you have such a phobia of dirt, I think it would be wise to always travel with a disinfectant spray; you can wash with soap and sanitize it afterward."
"I do think your parameter for what's clean and when something is clean is irrational, and it kinda interferes with your life by making others follow your rules and having a hard time dealing with it when its not up to your standard?"
"I honestly would suggest therapy."
"It seemed unintentional by your bf so getting upset and demanding an apology when he already tries to cater to your needs is a little a**holey."- MiIllIin
"YTA."
"If you were that concerned about it, instead of being mad, you could have easily called housekeeping."
"Or washed the tub with soap and water and pour hot water from your coffee maker over the bottom of the tub to sanitize it."
"You are at a point where your neurotic behavior is negatively impacting your relationship, and it is a problem now."
"You're very concerned about germs but don't know how soap in general works, and you'd rather be pissed and fighting with your partner than find a corrective solution to fight your problem with your partner."- pandatron3221
"YTA."
"You are expecting your husband to follow your 'logic,' but the thing is, your position is not logical."
"Without wanting to worry you or expand your fears more, your replies to this thread give enough evidence of illogicality; you haven't researched concrete facts around dirt on shoes (or on feet when wearing open footwear), around cleaning products or procedures, on how germs and bacteria exist and are killed."
"Your fear is based on a perceived risk, conflated and inflated in your experience and over time."
"I'm not here to tell you that you are an AH over that - anxiety is real, and a supportive partner will seek to support you. However, it CANNOT be a stick to beat your partner with."
"At that point, you are patently the AH."
"Don't get me wrong - I have some cleanliness and order anxiety."
"I travel with antibacterial wipes and a tiny pack of portable cleaning materials that give me peace of mind, BUT even I cannot follow your logic at all."
"I hope you are seeking therapy for your anxiety."
"In the meantime, packing an 'indoor' pair of flip flops for use in bathrooms only (flip flops are super thin) and getting some anti-bac wipes would probably be a good add to your packing while you work through everything around your anxiety (knowing that cold turkey won't be helpful)."-EssexCatWoman
"FYA: If your compulsion is leading to fights with your husband, it's affecting your life."-wubadub47678
"For me, I don't get it. Why can't you just rinse the tub out?"
"But I don't understand your fear of germs anyway."
"So, I can't follow you. I think you should see a therapist."
"That's not being clean in a healthy way."
"So, for me, you are YTA."- Fuzzy_Campaign7163
"YTA."
'Just rinse out the tub and wash it with some soap if you're grossed out."
"You caused a lot of drama over nothing."- Latter-Shower-9888
"YTA."
"He didn't do anything wrong."
"You're just unreasonably worried about cleanliness."- izstoopid
"YOU were the one who ruined the experience."
"Your cleanliness obsession is not normal or logical."
"I suggest you educate yourself about how germs indeed work."
"Therapy seems like a good idea, too."
"YTA."- ExpressionMundane244
"Ok but you have to actually listen to him about what doesn't make sense."
"Lol therapy wouldn't hurt."- Dull-Explorer8527
"The truly gross thing on this entire thread is OP insisting on showering while wearing shoes that were also worn outdoors."
"Leave your outdoor shoes at the front door, like a normal human."
"Then you can wash your feet in the bath or shower like a normal human."
"The point of soap and water is that it cleans dirty things."
"If you're grossed out by the tub, then do it the Japanese way: shower first, WITHOUT WEARING SHOES, then run the bath and soak in it after you've cleaned yourself in the shower."
"YTA for showering in shoes that you also wear outdoors."
"Gross."
"Also YTA for making unsanitary rules."- Ms-DangerNoodle
Upon reading everything the Reddit community had to say, the OP returned to acknowledge that her behavior was uncalled for and she should probably work on her issues regarding cleanliness:
"Thank you all for your judgment."
"I'm seeing a consensus that I'm TA."
"Reasons: my 'logic' for cleaning practices is unclear."
"My germaphobia would be improved if I actually learned how they work and how they impact the body."
"I should react more productively to my husband's 'mistakes' when accommodating my special standards."
"I also saw multiple messages to 'get therapy', I don't think I need it."
"It's really not impacting my life or my husband's life that much. There is no need to extrapolate our life from this one incident."
"I know I need to chill about germs and cleanliness."
"I'm going to talk to my husband about what makes sense and what doesn't, and we'll be clearer and more fair than before."
"Again, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts."
"I'm still reading new replies, but they mostly touch on things that have been discussed previously so I'm not adding repeated replies."
"I spoke with my husband, and he read the post."
"We agreed I have some OCD / germaphobia, but it's not really negatively impacting our life, certainly not enough to need therapy."
"I should be nicer about him accidentally doing something I disagree with."
"Also, I have nothing against therapy; I just don't think there's anything to discuss/explore here."
"It's also not a panacea; the groupthink here to just suggest therapy to everyone who you disagree with is a bit concerning, but that's probably just Reddit being Reddit."
"I know most of you mean well."
"Thank you again!"
Everyone has a phobia or paranoia of some sort. Some people are able to hide it more successfully than others.
Perhaps following this experience, the OP might start taking the necessary steps to relax a little bit and not worry about cleanliness quite so much.
Or, at the very least, not take her problems out on her husband.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp