Two people might have an amazing relationship while they're dating or married, but how they handle breaking up speaks volumes about their characters and what their relationship was really like behind the scenes.
That's especially true when they have kids, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor OptimalStatement5799 had been single for the past two years after finding out that their wife was having an affair, and they'd struggled since then to peacefully co-parent their children with her.
When she kept trying to sabotage their parenting, the Original Poster (OP) decided they wanted to start having separate events, like birthday parties and holidays, so they could celebrate without her getting in the way.
They asked the sub:
"Am I overreacting for telling my children's mother that she isn't welcome to their birthday celebrations that I plan?"
The OP had a trial coming up with their hostile ex-wife.
"I've been divorced for two years now, and my ex is still dating the man she had an affair with. She still refuses to admit to the affair despite the overwhelming evidence. The kids call him 'Daddy First Name' now, even though they're only dating..."
"We have a high-conflict coparenting situation (50/50). I've asked for a parenting coordinator, and she refused. I've asked for coparenting counselling, and she refused forever until recently, and we have each had one session separately."
"We have a relocation trial happening next year, because she wants to take our kids and move across the country for her to be closer to her family and affair partner."
"I've refused to let her move with the kids, and now a judge will decide."
The OP's ex-wife was becoming increasingly toxic, especially where it concerned their kids.
"Since the trial proceedings began, she's done a lot of mudslinging, accusing me of negligence when I dropped off the kids at school and they smelt like urine (they didn't, though, and I confirmed with their teachers they didn't through email)."
"She has the kids report between houses how much screen time they have, baths, what they eat for lunch and dinner, etc."
"A judge has politely told her twice to stop having the kids do this, and unfortunately, it continues. My one son will literally ask me how many baths they had so they can tell Mommy when it's close to swapping homes."
"I'm not doing anything different than what we did when we were married with hygiene, cooking, etc."
"I wanted the kids to start therapy, and she refused even though our separation agreement said she has to give consent. A judge told her to allow therapy."
The OP no longer wanted to host joint events, like birthday parties.
"The kids' birthdays are coming up soon. Last year, she wanted to have the four of us have a birthday dinner together like we used to. I refused. She told the kids, 'Daddy isn't ready.'"
"Planning a shared birthday event was dreadful last year. Some of my family didn't come because of how awkward it is."
"This year, I asked her not to have her affair partner come to our kids' birthday celebrations. He likely wouldn't because he lives far away, but I still want to establish my boundaries. She refused to answer, plus because of the other behavior above, I told her I'm done with joint birthdays from here on."
"She has her celebrations with who she wants and how she wants, and I'll do the same."
"She made it seem like she would come to my celebration, and I clarified that she is not invited to my celebration I arrange for our children, and until coparenting dynamics change, it will remain this way."
"The mudslinging, the gaslighting, the tension, and making me look like the bad guy to our children is too much for me to deal with on a yearly basis. From here on, separate lives except sharing our children."
"AIO?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NOR: Not Overreacting
- YOR: You're Overreacting
Some reassured the OP that with a hostile coparenting situation, their kids were better off with separate celebrations.
"NOR. The kids are better off having two separate but loving celebrations than the one tense, drama-filled event." - Substantial_Value359
"NOR. My favourite thing about divorced parents was two celebrations for birthdays and Christmas." - Noeggs70
"I wish we had done separately. Everyone is grown now, but they were so awkward, and we were always scolded after for some indiscretion they felt we made. NOR! Choose peace." - angielberry
"NOR, only because your ex is being a petty, vindictive brat, and trying to gather whatever ammo she can to use against you in order to be able to move away with the kids. Don’t give her any."
"Though, I do feel sad for your kids that their mother seems to be a selfish a**hole. But in my opinion, she lost the privilege of having joint birthday celebrations when she started making s**t up about you in order to get the upper hand in court."
"And I also don’t think it’s appropriate that she allows your children to call her affair partner 'Daddy [name],' and I hope that’s brought up in therapy and put to a stop." - MissMerrimack
"NOR. There’s no reason that she needs to come to the celebration that you are planning. She can do whatever she wants on her own time with the children." - Mittens1965
"NOR. It may be too GenX of me to say, but my parents had a very amicable divorce, and not once did anyone even think about having joint parties/dinners/etc."
"What is the point of pretending to be one family when you aren’t anymore? I feel like it’s just confusing for kids, and possibly giving them false hope that someday Mom and Dad will get back together." - chicagoinlondon
Others encouraged the OP to continue to pursue therapy for their children and themselves.
"NOR. Put your kids in therapy; you have a court order telling you that you can. This will show the judge that she isn’t going along with things and is afraid of what they tell the therapist. They also NEED it!" - murphy2345678
"NOR. If possible, you should start using a parenting app and keep all communication with your ex on that alone. This can be used in court if necessary. Also document everything that she’s doing that she shouldn’t be. This will also be useful in court."
"I’d also put your children into therapy during your parenting time, if this has been allowed by the courts. The therapist’s testimony will probably also be helpful in court." - LordGarmadon1977
"NOR!!"
"Change the parenting plan to include specific wording that you each make all decisions regarding medical/ dental, day-to-day decisions while the kids are with you no coparent approval at all, so you can get the kids into therapy on your time without their mom thwarting your decisions every time."
"Require a coparenting app through the courts for all communication between you and mom so the judge has access to it as well and all communications can be used in court if needed, if you get it approved by the judge make sure you never respond to your coparent outside of the app."
"Remember that all your decisions and efforts must be in the children's best interest! Document everything and I mean everything in detail with no emotions that documentation is a lifesaver in court. Separate homes should be completely separate if the coparent is high-conflict to avoid sneaky issues and her ability to get in your home to document against you." - sierra38grandma
"She’s a vindictive sunofab***h. There’s nothing wrong with separate birthday celebrations. Some kids actually like that, because it extends the birthday and often means more presents."
"She’s just trying to insert herself here to cause drama and create opportunities to mudsling again. Talk to your lawyer about whether you should address this in writing so you can rationally and civilly lay out why you think it’s best for the children to hold separate parties and how you can make it a positive experience. If the lawyer agrees, that’s a paper trail of you trying to be an adult about this."
"Sorry your wife is doing this to you and her children. She’s actually harming them by making them spies. You should see if you can have this brought up in therapy and also get a professional opinion about this."
"She sucks. I hope you prevail. You deserve better than this piece of s**t." - Terrible-Pea494
"Make sure to do therapy yourself. I just went through my third round with a man whom I thought I’d marry and was SO different from my exes… just to find out it was the same, just wrapped in a better personality."
"Why we choose our partners is so rooted in our childhood experiences. It’s so important to be able to identify those weaknesses and develop the ability to say no to them."
"I sincerely wish you the best in your future partner!" - kingcurtis37
Some also urged the OP to document their coparenting, especially the things that weren't benefiting their children.
"Make sure you're documenting every single thing, and in particular, her attempts at parental alienation by having the children call her partner 'daddy abc,' the desire to take the children away from you, the talking bad about you to the children, etc." - Quiet-Hamster6509
"Hey, I actually would look into the judge putting a stop to the calling the AP 'Daddy.' I know someone who's ex-husband asked in court for their husband to not be called daddy by their daughter. Different situation, the guy was hardly ever present in their daughter's life, but the judge granted it and said it was creating parental alienation, among other things."
"It is at least worth bringing up. Keep a paper trail of EVERYTHING. Any time you speak with her, record it (if your state laws allow), only correspond through texting, record phone calls. Unfortunately, judges do favor the mothers in most situations, so make sure you have plenty of ammo, too." - FunOutlandishness517
"I really hope her not listening to the judge works in your favor in the relocation situation. You are NOR here. She's creating drama where there doesn't need to be. It's perfectly normal to have different celebrations."
"Based on your comments, I am glad that you have a great lawyer on your side. He's right, it's not a slam dunk (nothing is), but this internet stranger is keeping her fingers crossed for you. You seem to be the only one who has the kids' best interests in mind here." - Away-Understanding34
"NOR. You're doing the right thing. Remove yourself from her drama as much as you can and document everything that happens, no matter how small. She's chosen not to co-parent, so this is how it will go now. Her approval isn't necessary. She's going to try to show up, though. I'd get some legal advice now to prepare for it." - RedneckDebutante
"Document everything, and also add how you dealt with it and the result. OP. Be factual and direct with what you write. Leave any emotions out of it, as it's a case you're presenting."
"When you go in front of the judge, ask for clarification as to what you SHOULD do in the future with each type of instance (not allowing court-mandated visitation/therapy/having the kids report to her, etc). This will give a directive and drive home the points."
"NOR, but I'd go for full custody." - mare__bare
The OP felt tremendous relief after reading the comments.
"Overwhelmingly, I feel much better about this decision based on all the responses! Thanks. It's hard to know sometimes, especially when my ex will get on me about how this isn't good for the kids... But it's like, if you didn't behave so poorly, I wouldn't be doing this!!! Ugh. Frustrating times. I hope things get better."
"I can at least say that she wouldn't try to show up to the party unannounced and uninvited, at least not this year, to give me something to use because of the trial. After the trial is over, I'm wondering how her behavior will change. If this is her on her better behavior because of fear of losing a trial, how will she be after?"
"And, I also worry if she wins. How nasty will she be if she gets her way and moves the children? When I move to stay close to the kids, will she treat me the same as I've been with her where we currently are? I mean, by getting the kids if she's sick or logistically being supportive, etc."
"Thank you all for your replies."
The subReddit sympathized with the OP and the emotional turmoil they likely found themselves in while trying to amicably coparent and co-plan with their ex, who had cheated and turned toxic. It sounded to the sub like it would be better for the children for events to be separate from now on, largely including home visits, rather than having to report back and forth and create more reasons to have therapy.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp