Conversations about money are almost guaranteed to become uncomfortable.
Particularly when being discussed between two people with significantly different incomes.
Chances are both parties are bound to become insecure about the fact that they make significantly less or more than the person they're talking with.
Similarly, people for whom money is an issue might feel embarrassed about being constantly treated or covered by friends or family. In contrast, people for whom money is no object may resent always having to cover the bills.
The boyfriend of Redditor Good-Recognition3690 recently lost their job, resulting in the original poster (OP) more or less becoming the one in charge of finances.
While this didn't initially seem to be an issue for either of them, things turned for the worse when the OP made an observation during a recent dinner out.
An observation their boyfriend didn't appreciate in the slightest.
Concerned they may have been out of line, the OP took to the subReddit "Am I The A**hole" (AITA), where they asked fellow Redditors:
"AITA for pointing out that my boyfriend ordered the most expensive things on the menu?"
The OP explained why a recent date night ended on a decidedly sour note:
"I adore the man I have been dating for 2+ years."
"He is smart and sensitive and kind."
"But we have a different relationship with money in that I am fairly frugal, and he is not."
"He has been unemployed for over a year."
"Before he lost his job, he made more than I did and has been working furiously to get a job ever since."
"At this point, though, I have significantly more money than he does."
"I am fine paying for experiences because I would prefer to do things together than apart."
"As such, I have been mostly picking up the tab when we go out to dinner."
"Here's where the conflict comes in: The last time we went out, he ordered the most expensive appetizer and entree on the menu."
"I pointed this out because, although he usually orders more than I do (I'm a vegetarian and don't eat as much as he does), this was more than usual, and I was raised that it isn't polite to order the most expensive things when someone else is buying."
"He became angry and felt that I had been silently judging him for every meal I had taken him out to in the past."
"He felt as if I was accusing him of taking advantage of me, the idea of which 'repulsed' him."
"He said he would rather walk home than accept a ride with me."
"Note: I never said these things, nor do I think them, and I tried multiple times to communicate this to him."
"I was shocked and hurt that this would be his response."
"I tried to tell him that I was responding to this specific event and that the only reason I said anything was because I was raised that you simply didn't order the most expensive thing on the menu."
"He did not believe me and I was in tears by the end of the meal."
"He said that I knew he was having issues with money and that it was insensitive to point out this behavior while we were at dinner—that if I had an issue, I should have told him later and with more sensitivity."
"This is not the first time I have said something that I thought was fairly innocuous but provoked an angry response from him.."
"I didn't set out to hurt his feelings, but I feel as if I am in my own right to say something."
"So, AITA for pointing out that he ordered the most expensive things on the menu?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation, by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
The Reddit community was fairly divided as to whether or not they felt the OP was the a**hole for calling out their boyfriend:
Some felt that the OP's boyfriend overreacted, and even if some felt the OP didn't need to mention this observation, it still didn't merit the response they were given.
Many even urging the OP to question whether this relationship was worth fighting for:
"NTA."
"A master course on DARVO; Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender."
"Your bf got caught acting poorly, and couldn't admit he was wrong, so he attacked you to cover up, leaving you in tears."
"He also has no problem taking advantage of your wallet."
"Is this what you really want in a partner?"
"He sounds immature and uncouth to me."- OlympiaShannon
"NTA."
"Unemployed over a year?"
"Girl, no."
"He can't find ANY job while he waits for his dream job?"
"I call bs."- Last_Ask4923
"NTA."
"He's gaslighting you by blaming you for being 'insensitive' when really he doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that what he was doing was wrong by yelling at you and making you feel guilty for questioning him."- RaineMist
"NTA."
"He's deflecting and painting himself as the victim to make you feel bad."- Disastrous-Nail-640
"NTA, it's common courtesy not to order the most expensive item when someone else is paying (and it's even worse when another person is consistently paying since it's not like he's going to pay for the next dinner as he's unemployed)."
"I would think his overreaction would be due to feeling embarrassed or having shame, but if that was the case why did he get such a pricey meal in the first place?"- Scared_Lackey_1954
"He felt called out on way more than you said - either he was really doing it and got caught to be this defensive or it was something that other people said to him as well."
"Either way he is the AH - especially with being unemployed for a year."
"And then having the gall to play hurt by 'you know I have issues with money' - how about not order the most expensive thing?!"
"NTA."
"And I would take a little time to think about his reactions to you calling him out on things, as you said that he had angry responses to you speaking out."
"In my eyes that's at least an orange flag and could show some control issues or lack of respect or other stuff regarding 'men are in control and control the money and the woman'."
"To bring a little levity to the end: I once dated a guy who was unemployed and who insisted on being the one to pay when we went out - in 'he is the one giving the money to the server'."
"I had to spot him the money and inconspicuously hand it over, so he could be the one paying.... Took me a while to get it (a lot of other issues as well), but I finally understood my worth."- AdBitter4706
Others didn't think either the OP or their boyfriend came off very well, agreeing that the OP's boyfriend overreacted, but the OP shouldn't have made their observation:
"ESH."
"If you take someone out, you shouldn't really be pointing out what they can and cannot have."
"At the same time, he definitely overreacted."
"I would have apologized and not gone out with you again."
"It just sounds like you guys aren't compatible."- Antique-Patient-1703
"ESH."
"He overreacted, but you were an AH for bringing it up after it happened."
"If you want a budget, say it before you pick a restaurant."- Khantahr
"ESH."
"You're dating for 2+ years, if you feel like your money is too tight for someone to order what they want to eat, you should let them know ahead of time."
"'Hey let's go out tonight, but we're on a bit of a budget, so let's not go all out", is a perfectly reasonable thing to say to your BF before you go'."
"He should know how to respond to a slight criticism, and not flip out on you."
"He seems like he got embarrassed being reminded he has no money (I know that's not at all what you said, just seems like how he took it), and instead of reacting like an adult, he lashed out like a child."
"The 'you shouldn't order the most expensive thing on the menu' is not at all a rule."
"It all depends on who's taking you out!"
"I know people that would be insulted that you even looked at prices at all when they're taking you out."- Seniormano
"ESH."
"I'm a vegetarian and never match my food cost to my husband because meat is more expensive than any other ingredient I'm not sure why you're concerned with being frugal if you eat out regularly."
"And policing what he eats is gross."
"That said, his response was really reactive."
"Are there other instances where you 'get on him' about things you find extravagant that he finds normal?"
"Are you frugal out of lacking necessities at some point in your life?"- SituationSad4304
Then there were those who felt the OP took an unnecessarily low blow, as they knew their boyfriend was self-conscious about money and was actively on the job hunt:
"You were raised not to order the most expensive thing on the menu."
"I was raised not to offer to pay for something, then to turn around and point out that the person picked something too expensive, in order to make them feel bad."
"YTA."- Fresh_Bluebird_4691
As the OP pointed out, their boyfriend was actively looking for work and not sitting idly enjoying her money. One has to wonder why they felt the need to make as big a deal of their boyfriend's order as they did.
Even so, as the OP was merely making an observation, not so much scolding him, his reaction is cause for concern.
Leading one to expect there probably won't be any "date nights" at restaurants for the foreseeable future.
Maybe ever again...
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp