Divorce is always a hard thing for children to process, no matter their age.
Particularly when infidelity is involved.
As infidelity might also make it harder for the parents to maintain a respectful relationship post-divorce.
Making the possibility of leading by example very difficult indeed.
A recent Redditor's marriage ended in divorce, almost completely owing to her ex-husband's infidelity.
Understandably, the original poster (OP)'s teenage son had a difficulty accepting his parents' divorce.
Unfortunately, he let his unhappiness be well known to both his father and his father's new partner.
With little to no discouragement from the OP.
Having some doubts about how she handled things, the OP took to the subReddit "Am I The A**hole" (AITA), where she asked fellow Redditors:
"AITA for not stopping my son from making rude comments about his dad's husband?"
The OP explained why her ex-husband found her semi-responsible for his strained relationship with their teenage son:
"I (42 F[emale]) share custody of my 16-year-old son, 'Zach', with my ex-husband, 'Mark (45 M[ale])."
"We divorced when Zach was 11, mostly because we had grown apart and Mark came out as gay and cheated on me."
"It was a shock at the time, but I've made my peace with it."
"He's now remarried to his husband, 'Daniel' (39 M), who is the person he cheated on me with."
"The thing is, Zach doesn't like Daniel."
"At all."
"I think he sees him as the reason our family fell apart."
"Over the past year, he's started making sarcastic little comments about Daniel when he comes back from weekends at Mark's."
"Sometimes it's kind of funny."
"Sometimes I laugh, or I don't say anything."
"A few times, I've just rolled my eyes and changed the subject."
"I didn't think it was worth making a big deal over—it's just venting, right?"
"But last weekend, Mark texted me upset."
"Apparently, Zach made some joke to Daniel's face, and Mark lost it."
"The joke was 'The only thing you've ever committed to is lying consistently'."
"He said it was cruel and homophobic and that he's tired of Zach 'being allowed' to treat Daniel like he's a joke."
"He asked me point blank if I'd been encouraging it, and I said no—but I did admit I hadn't really shut it down, either."
"Now Mark is furious."
"He says I've been passively feeding into the problem by letting Zach be disrespectful without consequences and that if I don't start taking it seriously, he might start reducing visits until Zach learns how to behave."
"That feels extreme to me."
"Look—I'm not trying to be petty."
"I get that Daniel is his partner, and he wants respect."
"But I'm also trying to pick my battles with a teenager who's already moody and bitter about how things turned out."
"I've tried talking to Zach in the past about being civil, but it usually ends in a fight or him shutting down."
"Now I'm wondering if I really have been enabling something harmful or if Mark is just being too sensitive about the whole thing."
"AITA for not shutting Zach down harder when he makes fun of his dad's husband?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation by declaring:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
While the Reddit community was somewhat divided, they generally agreed that the OP was not the a**hole for not discouraging their son from telling jokes.
Many agreed that the OP's son did not say anything homophobic, which would be an entirely different story, and that the OP's ex threatening to put an end to their visits made it clear that he, not the OP, was the one who needed to up his parenting game:
"This requires a modicum of common sense."
"Teenagers by and large are moody creatures and prone to these kind of behaviors, you have to temper these as best you can which naturally isn't easy."
"That said, any jokes that he's making that are homophobic, you absolutely need to be shutting down immediately."
"It's not acceptable, and you don't want him to make a habit of thinking it's fine to do that."
"He's angry at his dad more than his partner, I suspect, so maybe it's about time they had a real chat about everything that happened and either agree to make their peace with it or go their separate ways."
"I'll say NTA."- Jainer99
"NTA."
"Also, just to make absolutely clear I'm understanding this correctly - your ex-husband is threatening to not see his own son to punish the child for said child's (factually correct!) calling out of his father's cheating?"
"I vote you let the f*cker 'not see' your son."
"The man clearly cannot make a valid claim to being a parent if his reaction to his kid 'being difficult' or 'moody' is to say 'well i just won't see you anymore'."
"That is not how parenthood works."
"Not good parenthood anyway."- TazzmFyrflaym
"Why is Mark leaving all the parenting to you?"
"Realizing he's gay didn't change the fact that he's still Zach's dad, y'know."
"He really has no reason/right to blame you for 'failing to parent Zach appropriately' so that his son 'corrects' the disrespect and/or resentment he feels towards his father (and thereby Daniel), as a result of Mark's own behavior."
"Mark's frustration is displaced if he thinks YOUR PARENTING is the reason for his son's rudeness towards Daniel."
"Yes, you shouldn't egg on/add to/promote your son's rudeness towards Daniel, but as long as it's not homophobic, Mark seems to be the one in the best position to most effectively influence his son's feelings in this matter."
"He needs to focus on having an honest conversation with his SON, rather than trying to guilt YOU into correcting Zach's behavior."
"NTA."- Original_Poseur
"NTA."
"Firstly, a comment about lying is NOT homophobic."
"That's some gay card-pulling garbage."
"However- instead of ignoring your son's comments or laughing, say, 'You know, I know this situation isn't ideal and can be uncomfortable, but I don't support you being disrespectful'."
"'We are all humans who make mistakes'."
"'I'm over the divorce, and frankly I'm glad your dad has a stable partner'."
"'Not many divorced people have someone in their life that accepts their kids, and it seems like your dad's husband is at least trying, so give him a break'."
"'He's not going anywhere and being rude isn't making anything easier for you'."
"'Besides, if you want to be angry with someone- it's your Dad that chose this path.'"
"Talk to him about your feelings'."
"'It's ok to tell him you're still hurting'."- age_of_No_fuxleft
"NTA."
"Maybe ask the father to explain what homophobic jokes he's making and explain that your son is very angry about the cheating."
"Be open to hearing if your son has been homophobic, but it sounds like he just isn't a fan of lying and cheating, which isn't a terrible personal value to have."- Acceptable_Bunch_586
"NTA."
"I would text him 'It's alright'."
"'I can take full custody of my son'."
"'That would be lovely'."- professionaldrama-
"...your ex cheated on you with this guy."
"What the hell does he expect your son to do?"
"Like seriously, realizing that he's guy and divorcing you, whatever, but cheating on someone is never okay."
"NTA."- KingDarius89
"Threatening to reduce his visits with his own son because he had to be a parent for like five seconds and deal with a family conflict?"
"F*ck this guy."
"NTA."- icecreampenis
Some felt, however, that the OP's ex wasn't wrong in being hurt that she didn't make more of an effort to stop these jokes, but agreed that it shouldn't have to fall on the OP entirely to help her son adjust to his new arrangement:
"NAH."
"You're not the devil here, but I do think u been a little too chill about it."
"Like yeah, Zach's hurt n pissed, fair, but at some point, he needs to learn that pain doesn't give u a free pass to be cruel."
"Especially to someone's face."
"If u don't step in now, it's gonna get messier and harder to fix later."
"This isn't just venting anymore. It's turning into bitterness he's carrying around."- Softcloudd
While some had trouble sympathizing with either the OP, her son, or her ex-husband, feeling that everyone could have handled everything about this situation better:
"ESH."
"Mark is an AH for cheating but not in the wrong now."
"You and your ex are AHs for not addressing what seems to be YEARS of resentment from your son."
"He was a child, so he expressed his feelings about the end of your marriage with these snarky comments, which you just ignored, failure on your part."
"Was there any family counseling at the time of the divorce?"
"This has been allowed to fester, and now your son is being a real AH to Daniel because it seems like no one gave him the tools to work through this in a healthy way."- Laines_Ecossaises
Forgiveness is not always easy, nor is it ever guaranteed.
Seeing as his parents' divorce was not easy to process and was made more complicated by his father's new spouse, it will certainly take time for the OP's son to forgive his father.
However, the OP's son needs to learn that his life will be much happier if he makes an effort to forgive his father.
Something the OP, being his mother, should teach him...
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp