Whether or not you want to get married, you probably have at least a few opinions about what a beautiful wedding would look like and what should be included in a "successful" wedding.
Some people hold such strong opinions about what should be included in a wedding, it can hurt their relationships, cringed the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITAH) subReddit.
Redditor No-Cauliflower-6934 was concerned as he watched his wife argue with their daughter about what her perfect wedding should look like. With his wife wanting a flowery, "girly" wedding and his daughter wanting a black and "goth" wedding, it was hard to imagine them finding a compromise.
When his wife valued her vision more than her daughter's happiness, the Original Poster (OP) was not surprised when his daughter decided to elope instead.
He asked the sub:
"AITAH for telling my wife to stop crying about missing out on our daughter's wedding?"
The OP loved all of his children, including his "non-traditional" daughter, Lynn.
"My wife (53 Female) and I (55 Male) have three children, Brett (27 Male), Amy (25 Female), and Lynn (24 Female)."
"Now let me say, I love all my children in their own way. But no child has ever given me a headache like Lynn. She's our wild child."
"She got a college degree at 16, began working and saving up, moved to Louisiana once she turned 18, got more college degrees, and lives a pretty nice life."
"I'm proud of her, of course but she has always been our wildly independent, argumentative, intelligent little girl."
"She's the more social one, too. She's covered in tattoos and piercings and always has funky hair. I'm proud of her, I love her, but she's always been our non-traditional child."
The OP also had a great relationship with Lynn's then-boyfriend, Brad.
"Lynn met her (now) husband, Brad (27 Male), when she first moved to Louisiana."
"Brad is like Lynn, tattoos and piercings up the wazoo. Non-traditional."
"He's a good kid, I like him. He protected Lynn and has been by her side for a lot of things. I actually love that kid for protecting my baby girl."
The OP's wife wanted them to have a wedding, even though the couple didn't want one.
"Lynn will be the first child of ours to be married so when we heard the news about their engagement, my wife was super excited."
"She started talking about wedding planning and all that girl stuff."
"Lynn and Brad were both upfront about not wanting a wedding and just wanting a small party with mainly family and some friends as a celebratory thing."
"My wife was very upset and pushed Lynn until she reluctantly agreed to plan a wedding."
But the two women could not agree about the wedding's vision.
"My wife wanted Lynn to have this overly girly wedding that Lynn just didn't want."
"Lynn was leaning more towards a gothy theme for the wedding and my wife wanted a more traditional Christian wedding, which was weird from the beginning, because Lynn has always been open about her style and religious standpoint."
"I just want my wife to accept Lynn."
"Not even a week into wedding planning, Lynn and my wife had a spat about floral arrangements, which led to Lynn flying back home to Louisiana."
Lynn then took matters into her own hands.
"Lynn announced they had eloped and would be planning a small intimate get-together in New Orleans around Halloween time."
"My wife lost it. She and Lynn got into a huge argument over the phone, which led to them not speaking."
"My wife cries every time this situation is brought up, saying she missed out on her little girl's special day."
The OP finally had to speak up about his wife's behavior.
"After a few weeks of this nonsense, I finally snapped and said, 'Why are you surprised? Lynn didn't want a wedding in the first place! She's our least traditional child! I'm just glad we at least got the engagement announcement. Stop crying about it and wait till Brett or Amy get married 'cause they are the ones that will actually enjoy that wedding s**t.'"
"My wife called me a few names and has been avoiding me."
"I really don't mean to be an a**hole, but Lynn is the last child I'd expect to want a big grand wedding."
"I mean, for f**k's sake, she's a nurse that does hair on the side who is also a practicing witch. That child makes no sense! I'd more expect Brett to want the big wedding when he and his boyfriend eventually get engaged. It also just felt wrong she tried forcing it on Lynn."
"Lay the brutal honesty on me. Do I roll over and apologize or continue to stick up for Lynn over this mess?"
"AITAH?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
Some theorized that the OP's wife was the reason the OP's daughter eloped in the first place.
"Does your wife realize she was probably the reason your daughter eloped?"
"If she had just let Lynn do whatever kind of wedding she wanted, I'm sure out of the small guest list, you both would have been invited. NTA." - Kaablooie42
"NTA. She didn't want the wedding. And when she agreed to a small wedding, your wife tried to bulldoze her into one."
"Tell if she keeps up this bull, Lynn will end up with no contact because your wife forgot how to be an adult. Remind her the marriage isn't about her. It should be about your daughter's happiness and also your relationship with her daughter and new husband." - RevolutionaryCow7961
"Lynn was literally kind and considerate enough when she didn't have to be at all in the first place, to even entertain the idea of a wedding and start to look at ideas. OP's wife completely disrespected Lynn's kindness and hijacked it so basically..."
"Wife didn't even want it to be Lynns' wedding, wife wanted it to be HER wedding. Ugh. Gross."
"So glad Lynn and Brad both respect themselves enough to have put their foot down and done what THEY WANTED. Hope they both have a fantastic celebration in New Orleans and a happy life together! They're clearly already a headstrong, united-front couple."
"P.S. OP, please let Lynn know you're proud of her and respect her choices, if you haven't already!" - meiuimei_
"Your wife sounds like my mom, and I haven't spoken to her in five years. Similar situation, though the wedding wasn't ultimately the reason I went no contact. Just letting you know that if she keeps up being this selfish, it's a very real possibility that your daughter may cut her off for good." - AuggieKT
"Your wife made it clear that she wasn't planning Lynn's wedding, she was planning a wedding for the daughter she wished she had."
"Your wife basically told Lynn that she does not love and accept her for the person that she is. And that's the reason why Lynn eloped. People wanna share their happiest moments with the people who love us the most, and that does not include your wife."
"Your wife needs to learn how to love the daughter she HAS instead of mourning or forcing, the daughter she wanted." - Legolinza
Others agreed and were certain that the flowers were not the real problem.
"It was NOT about the flowers." - CherryDarling10
"The fact that Lynn canceled not only your wife's wedding plans but also her ORIGINAL wedding plans really speaks to just how far your wife was pushing things. I get the feeling that the flowers were barely the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the ways your wife massively overstepped."
"Totally NTA. And you may need to get your wife into counseling to curtail her need to control her children's lives." - digitydigitydoo
"NTA. Your wife missed her daughter's wedding because she was acting like she was planning her own wedding."
"Whatever type of flowers your wife wanted is irrelevant because she is neither the bride or groom." - TarzanKitty
"It is sad your wife wanted to shove the starburst shape that Lynn represents into a square hole. All that happened is Lynn got confirmation from your wife that she will never fully accept Lynn the person she is."
"If you want to, maybe apologize ONLY for losing your temper and yelling but not for what you said. Talk it out. She made Lynn's engagement about herself not about celebrating the love between Lynn and her husband."
"By constantly trying to change Lynn all she is doing is pushing her away. Ask her why it was more important for her to have what she wanted then letting Lynn have what she wanted? NTA; something needed to be said."
"Then send your daughter and her husband a wedding present. Something super gothy and fun." - bored-panda555
"'I just want my wife to accept Lynn.' That makes me ache for Lynn."
"If your wife has always been this way with Lynn, that may be why she did all she could to get away. That's painful for Lynn, to probably know her mom doesn't accept her as she is."
"If I were you, I would send Lynn a Congratulations/Halloween card/gift, something you know she'll like because you 'get her,' possibly just from you, so she knows that you love her and accept her as she is."
"It'll be like a long-distance hug. Write her a note if that's your thing. (My Dad doesn't write. He says he never knows what to write.)" - ASweetTweetRose
The subReddit was grateful that Lynn and Brad had done what was best for them and that they would do a simple get-together when they were ready.
They also completely agreed with the OP that it wasn't surprising that Lynn had stepped away after being pushed by her mother, first to have a wedding at all, let alone in a style that did not speak to her personality at all.
If you want your child to have a wedding, let it be a celebration of them, not of what you want.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp