People have varying comfort levels when it comes to physical touch, whether that's hand-holding or hugs, to express love for another person.
Some people are generally so uncomfortable with it, they assume that physical touch has to be reserved strictly for a romantic partner, pointed out the members of the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITAH) subReddit, though it's normal to show some physical attention to friends and family, too.
Redditor Character-Crow309 had always been close to her brother, and they expressed love partially through hugs and a kiss on the cheek as a greeting.
But after her future husband freaked out and threatened to call off their engagement over a kiss on the cheek, the Original Poster (OP) wondered if she was being inappropriate.
She asked the sub:
"AITAH for kissing my brother on the cheek, causing my fiancé to want to break up with me because he finds it weird?"
The OP was very close her younger brother.
"My brother (17 Male) and I (25 Female) have been close since childhood. It wouldn't be a lie to say that our main love language is physical touch."
"I see him as my baby. He's adorable and such a sweet kid. We hug, cuddle, and he also relies on me emotionally A LOT."
"Now comes my fiancé (29 Male). We've been together for three years now and he knows that I'm close to my brother."
"I moved in with my fiancé last year, so I don't even get to meet my brother that often, so every time I meet and hug him, my fiancé always makes some passing remarks like, 'Whoa there' or 'You guys sure are close.'"
"I just roll my eyes since I thought he was joking back then."
At their mother's birthday, they talked about a problem the OP's brother was having.
"Five days back, it was my mom's birthday and it's been four months since I saw my family in real life, aside from video calls, as we live in different cities. It was a small party with relatives, and I was happy to be there. We were planning to stay for the night and leave the next morning."
"At night, my fiancé and I were up watching a movie when my brother knocked and came inside, asking if we could talk. My fiancé gave me a side-eye, but I got up and followed him."
"I asked him what was wrong. He said he missed me and that he's been having a hard time at school since he's struggling with his studies. He's a smart kid. He's at the top of his school, unlike me, and I knew he always had stress issues."
"He also mentioned how his friends are being very rude to him in one way or the other, and this MADE HIM CRY while talking about it, so obviously, I was consoling him."
"We talked for around one hour before I hugged him, saying everything will be fine, and this is when my fiancé walked in and asked, 'Are you guys done?' He sounded upset and he could've phrased that better but after a few more minutes, I got up, gave my brother a kiss on the cheek, and told him we could continue to talk tomorrow."
The OP was surprised when her partner lashed out at her for being close to her brother.
"Once I got inside the room with my fiancé, all h**l broke loose. He started telling me how gross I was for kissing my own brother?!"
"He said he was already upset that I have hugged, cuddled, and had my brother lay on my lap before on other occasions but now the kissing was the final nail in the coffin. He said that I prioritize my brother more than I do for him, which is not true at all. I hardly see my brother ever since I moved out."
*He said that a kiss is reserved between a couple or married partners and that I shouldn't be doing this with anyone even if they were family. He says that since I kissed him, it's gross for me to kiss my brother since it would mean they both were on the same level and I see my brother as a partner too."
"He said that one day, I would end up sharing intimate gestures we have with each other. This is possibly the worst thing I've heard from his mouth that day and I feel disgusted the more I think about it."
"He doesn't like any kind of skinship between me and my brother. He's always made jokes about it in the past saying we could be couples in an alternate reality and I just accepted them since those sounded harmless. I'm honestly still shocked he thought seriously about this."
"He's also been upset about my brother laying on my lap once. This was a year ago, and I was on the couch watching TV, when my brother simply rested his head on my lap while he was playing some kind of game. My fiancé walked in a while later and we did have a short conversation at dinner saying he didn't like it, and that I'm supposed to be having his head on mine instead of my brother."
"I genuinely don't get it since it's not like I ever told him I wouldn't allow him to do the same, but he dislikes that my brother did it. I did apologize back then since he seemed very upset. We didn't bring this up again and he's only made more backhanded jokes since then. I would have never imagined this to go this way and I'm so lost."
The OP was alarmed by her partner's understanding of her relationship with her brother.
"I just can't believe he said that I'm not seeing my brother as my family and that our relationship is not normal. He literally told me, 'You guys are in love' and said we are having an affair. And that he hates how we touch each other since it comes off sexual?!"
"I'm aware a lot of siblings don't do physical touch but it doesn't say anywhere doing it is wrong. I don't understand what is sexual about this?"
The OP felt conflicted.
"Please help me understand. These made me feel so awful so I told him that my then father (separated now) was really abusive to my mom, me, and my brother as kids, which often makes me feel like I should protect him and that's all there is to it. But he didn't even let me explain before he just left the room."
"The next day, he called his mom and said he wanted to break off with me. I talked to her myself and she said I should stay away from my brother if the marriage has to happen since it could affect my fiancé mentally, as he is a single child, so he wouldn't understand how siblings feel. She said it's better for both of us."
"Now I'm so conflicted because I don't understand what I did wrong. I never felt like I did anything to warrant a breakup. I love my brother and I love my fiancé too. I knew my fiancé always made backhanded remarks about my brother before, but it never crossed my mind he took it so seriously until that day."
"Am I really acting weird with my brother? If I am, please tell me what I can do to not be like this that wouldn't hurt my brother in the process, too?"
"AITAH?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
Some were certain that the OP's ex-fiancé was the problem, not the OP and her brother.
"As much as it hurts, be thankful that your fiance is showing his true colors before you got married. What if you have a child and he wants to dictate your interactions there too?"
"F**k him and f**k his mom. They are gaslighting you because he's an insecure mommy's boy."
"Dump that pr**k and live happily. NTA." - DankyMcJangles
"Your brother is forever, OP! You were being sweet and totally appropriate. Your EX fiance has problems. Run! NTA." - sophomorichumorist
"Fiance is making an issue where there is none bc he is so threatened by you interacting with another male. Never mind that the male is a minor and your blood relative. He accused you of incest and pedophilia for kissing your brother on the cheek. What the f**k?!"
"Please don't marry him, he's possessive, jealous, controlling, and unhinged. You're going to have a miserable, isolated life if you do."
"NTA." - BasicRabbit4
"I'm willing to bet that if she calls his bluff, he will come back begging her and love-bombing her. But his toxic possessive nature will continue to reveal itself long-term." - Dapper_Computer_3238
"What's horrific is her fiancé's mother is encouraging OP to stay away from her brother? She's enabling him, and it will only get worse from here on."
"And she basically admitted that she thinks her son is in the wrong, by making excuses for him by saying that he doesn't understand sibling relationships because he's an only child. Basically, he doesn't see OP's brother as her brother, he sees him as another man and feels threatened by the familial affection OP displays with her brother."
"The cherry on top is the fact that OP's brother is only 17, if he's this threatened by a minor who's so closely related to OP, that's a huge red flag. A random guy could ask OP for directions on the street and he'd probably blow up at her and accuse her of cheating." - depravedQ
Others agreed and could only imagine how much worse the fiancé would be with children.
"How will he act when you show love and affection to your children?"
"I think he will try and make you feel bad about hugs/cuddles/kisses, which can all be very normal interactions with children and parents. If those types of interactions with your own family are seen in a sexual way and/or give you sexual urges, then that is a YOU problem, and you shouldn't be around children."
"Close contact and physical touch give many people comfort in a completely non-sexual way. There is a fundamentally different type of love people show for their family/friends compared to their partners. Emotionally stunted individuals can't tell the difference."
"I empathize with those who deal with it themselves in the sense that they can't be physically close with others because it makes them uncomfortable, and they are allowed to have personal boundaries, but don't expect others around you to be the same." - autumn_treestar
"My husband (at the time) told me I spend too much time with my newborn son. What?!? OP should think if she wants to live like that. It was hard for me to leave but I did as soon as I could. How do you spend too much time with a newborn?" - estrm
"My ex got really weird about me breastfeeding our son. Not because he thought breastfeeding was bad (I also breastfed our older daughter) but because he was upset that our son 'spends more time touching your breasts than I do.'"
"He was jealous of our infant son eating regularly because apparently boobs can only be a sexual thing if it involves a boy."
"I really wish I'd known he held that belief before we married and had kids." - BobMortimersButt
"My baby brother isn't related to me by blood. Legally speaking, if for some weird reason we wanted to f**k or have a relationship, we technically could, but that would never happen, because we would never want to."
"We're truly brothers in every sense of the word, and we've held each other while we've drunkenly cried, slept in the same bed, gone out to eat, gone to the movies together... and zero percent of it was ever sexual, or even romantic."
"We're simply comfortable with ourselves, with each other, and with having human emotions vs. having to put on a mask of hyper-machismo. Not even shared DNA could make him 'more' my brother. I'd fight a bear for him."
"Mannn. We'd probably make this dude poop himself in rage and paranoia." - LittleBunnySunny
"It's absurd of him to think about the relationship between op and her brother like that. It's a massive red flag."
"I've got a brother from another mother and it doesn't matter we aren't blood-related, we grew up together, I've known him since he was a little toddler. His mum and mine are best friends. We hug, we give each other kisses on the cheek, and we will wrestle when the opportunity comes up. We are 35 and 29."
"My husband is fine with this and also has unofficially adopted him as his little brother. We have holidays together and he is an uncle to our kids."
"That's how it's supposed to be!" - holiance
While the subReddit could understand physical relationships going too far between family members, they did not suspect that that was what was going on between the OP and her brother.
Rather, it sounded like the OP's partner struggled with any form of physical intimacy that didn't involve sex and that he was projecting about those insecurities.
It was important to them that the OP agree to ending the relationship and walking away before the marriage was finalized. Otherwise, the OP's partner would likely continue to make inappropriate comments like this, and it would likely impact his relationship with his children in the future.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp