The dinner menu can be a divisive topic for big holidays like Turkey Day.
Between allergies, certain palatable tastes, and dietary restrictions it's a wonder why people don't just do a potluck.
Clashing over what will be served has become a new pastime for many families.
As newer generations take over the reins from the grandparents, takeout menus get a lot more mileage than they used to.
Redditor Suspicious-Basil7882 wanted to discuss her experience and get some feedback. So naturally, she came to visit the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit.
She asked:
"AITA for refusing to cook a vegetarian Thanksgiving dinner?"
The Original Poster (OP) explained:
"Background: I (31 F[emale]) and my brother Mark (35 M[ale]) do not get along."
"When he was a teen he saw a documentary on factory farming and decided to become a vegetarian."
"He got very, very annoying about it quickly, but my dad shut him down when he started trying to get the rest of us to be vegetarian with him."
"Then he went to college, made a bunch of very strange friends, and went militantly vegan."
"It's his entire personality."
"I stopped talking to him after he threw a fit about one of my birthday dinners being at a steakhouse and spammed my messages with pictures of abused cows."
"My parents have been trying to repair the situation and for a while, it did seem like Mark was getting better so I've been letting him back into contact gradually."
"Then he started dating Pam, who is some kind of vegan influencer."
"She is apparently moderately popular online, but I have no idea what she does exactly."
"I don't know if Mark was trying to impress her or what, but last Thanksgiving he insisted that mom cook at least a vegetarian meal or they wouldn't come on 'ethical grounds.'"
"My mom just wanted everyone to get along on her favorite holiday, so she agreed."
"It was not a fun meal."
"This year, my parents have downsized for retirement, and my mom is having health problems."
"I bought their house when they moved, so my mom asked me to host Thanksgiving so it would be like usual."
"I told everyone in the group chat so Mark and Pam could make travel arrangements. Pam immediately started gushing about all the vegan replacement recipes she could give me to replace the traditional ones."
"I said to send me a main dish recipe they like, and I would give it a shot, but I'm making the traditional meal otherwise, and there should still be plenty of things they can eat."
"Mark and Pam have been arguing about this with me for days, and then Mark said that if I didn't make a meat-free meal, they wouldn't come."
"This upset my mom, who asked me just to make what she made last year to keep the peace, but I told her that Mark needs to get over himself, and I'm not coddling him."
"I'm having turkey on Thanksgiving."
"My dad privately agrees with me, but Mark's threatening not to come is upsetting my mom so much that he's worried it will impact her health."
"There's a not big, but also not zero chance that these might be some of the last family holidays we have with her."
"My mom thinks I'm putting turkey over my own family, and I'm not so sure anymore."
The OP was left to wonder:
"AITA?"
Redditors shared their thoughts on this matter and weighed some options to the question AITA:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Many Redditors declared OP was NOT the A**hole.
"NTA - You're not putting turkey over family—Mark is putting tofurkey over family."
"You've reasonably accommodated enough with a vegan option."
"Mark doesn't get to hold holidays hostage because of his own dietary choices."
"That's ridiculous."
"If Mark wants to pitch a fit, that's him."
"I feel very sorry for your mom, she's the one suffering most here."
"But she needs to realize that Mark is the one causing this family divide, and it isn't fair to everyone else to cater to his demands." ~ CrimsonKnight_004
"I came to make these exact points!"
"I'm glad OP wants to be strong and hold their ground, as they should!"
"But it makes me violently frustrated that Mom would accept Mark's childish behavior, and then attempt to bully the rest of the family?!?!"
"Is mom's health issue that her backbone was removed?!"
"I would NEVER let one of my kids act like that."
"My family is a mixture of people on Keto, lactose intolerant, gluten-free, etc, and we all work TOGETHER to make sure everyone has options, including bringing what they want."
"There's always PLENTY of food, but it's more about being together for us."
"This is crazy." ~ PurpleFunkyBoss
"LOL. My M[other]-I[n]-L[aw] cited various allergies and health issues (guess what? None of them actually real) and expected us to cook a Christmas meal for 24 people catering for those requirements."
"No fat. No salt. No sugar. No gluten. No dairy. No carrots, onions, garlic, celery, herbs."
"OP, NTA. Special occasions are about spending time with loved ones, vegan options alongside the normal menu are sufficient." ~ cynical-mage
"Exactly. It is completely unreasonable for them to demand that the entire meal is vegan to cater to them."
"You offered to try making a main dish for her, and of course, there are usually lots of veggies and other stuff that don't have meat in them. That is plenty."
"I really hate it when people try to force their militant lifestyle on everyone else."
"You're vegan? Great! Good for you!"
"Now I have to be a vegan?! Hell no! "
"They are just as bad as all those evangelicals trying to force their religion down everyone else's throats. It's annoying."
"And believe me, I speak from experience as I used to be one (an evangelical). NTA." ~ alycewandering7
"I have found (only from personal experiences) that vegetarians are remarkably chill about other's eating habits."
"Also generally pretty adventurous, trying other cultural cuisines."
"Vegans... not so much."
"And not as tolerant of other's practices."
"One factor - the newer someone is to Vegan, the more extreme and intolerant they tend to be."
"OP should insist that next time, her brother and his G[irl]F[riend] should host."
"I don't think they'd like that one little bit... OP is NTA." ~ Critical-Wear5802
"This is so much."
"'Mark doesn't get to hold holidays hostage because of his dietary choices.'"
"There's going to be vegan options and that's the most accommodating anyone should be expected to do."
"He browbeat his own mother last year until she caved and he's upset his sister cannot be as easily abused into submission."
"NTA OP."
"Tell your brother there will be a small vegan main dish and some vegan-friendly sides so he's welcome to come and enjoy the holiday peacefully with his family."
"But if he's just going to bring drama and cause trouble, he and his girlfriend can stay home because you are trying to be cordial."
"If he comes under the guise of a peaceful family holiday but tries to start trouble his invitation will be rescinded and he'll be escorted out of your house." ~ Sweetsmyle
"NTA. You've even offered to cook them a vegan main dish, which is pretty above and beyond (I think most people would just tell them to bring their own food)."
"Seems like they are taking the position that not only are they vegan, but they are essentially forcing it on everyone else by refusing to come, which is ridiculous."
"If your mom is getting upset, it's because of Mark's actions, not yours... it's not fair for everyone else to have to comply with his demands."
"If he actually cares about your mom, he would put her feelings first." ~ Tdluxon
"My aunt was vegan, she brought her own meals to family gatherings."
"Why can't they do the same? NTA." ~ JadieBugXD
"NTA, you've given them a vegan option, you shouldn't have to change what you eat because they don't like it."
"They could always bring their own." ~ Maisie_M00
"NTA. People like Mark and Pam are why negative stereotypes about vegans exist."
"There are plenty of normal vegans who don't make it their mission to force it down everyone else's throats but then you run into people like these and they just try to ruin everything for everyone." ~Major_Friendship4900
"NTA. You offered a main dish replacement, and last I checked, outside of gravy, most of the rest of the meal was veggies of some sort."
"It is his choice to be excluded, not yours." ~ ZT99k
"NTA. I'm a very strict vegan and this is an unreasonable request."
"I think it's great you're willing to make them a separate main course."
"I bring my own food for Thanksgiving already cooked and reheated in the oven." ~ cespirit
"You're not in the wrong."
"If they want it so badly they can make it and bring it for themselves!" ~ Exact-Area-2243
OP came back with some Updates...
"Whoa, this blew up."
"So the answers to some common questions.."
"As I said, I've already offered to make sure there is a main dish and sides they can eat."
"Mark and Pam will not show up if anyone else eats meat at this meal."
"If any meat is served to anyone, they won't come."
"Doing multiple meals that day or across multiple days is a no-go."
"I'm a newly minted critical care physician at an understaffed hospital during a major holiday week and I will have a limited window of time between shifts."
"I have time for one gathering and I would rather not waste it on a miserable one like last year."
"Mark and Pam can't host because they live in a van at present."
"I'm also not willing to have them in my kitchen for hours bi**hing about the meat in my fridge, the cookware and utensils, and whatever else they can find to complain about."
"The time it would take for them to come to eat, socialize for a couple of hours, and leave is the maximum amount I'm willing to let them be in my home."
"Although it would admittedly be interesting to watch them try to host a family Thanksgiving out of a van."
"It is very unlikely that my mom is going to die anytime soon."
"It's just a non-zero chance, she's understandably worried about it, and is in the pessimism stage of grieving her health."
"She has a good prognosis and most people with her condition pull through and live for a long time afterward."
"If it is by some chance the last Thanksgiving, I don't think a repeat of last year's Thanksgiving would do her any good either as everyone left that table unsatisfied and unhappy."
"So, a possible situation to this that I came up with while talking to my partner is to just work through Thanksgiving instead."
"The attending on shift that day would probably be happy to stay home, so swapping wouldn't be hard."
"Mom would be sad about canceling, but she knows my job is demanding and saves lives so she won't be upset."
"Mark and Pam can kick rocks."
"To be honest, eating hospital turkey between emergencies sounds better than a family Thanksgiving right now."
"I'll have to turn it over some more."
This is a tricky situation, OP.
Reddit is with you, though.
People don't get to impose their beliefs on others.
You're making a statement by sticking to your guns.
Maybe they'll get over themselves in time.
Good luck and Happy Holidays!
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp