Division of labor and money is a tough issue in many marriages. But for one mom on Reddit, the issue has destroyed her daughter's impending marriage.
After her daughter heeded her advice and refused to get a full-time job so she can plan her dream wedding, her fiance broke off the engagement and accused her of gold-digging.
She wasn't sure about how she'd handled things, so she went to the AITA (Am I The A**hole) subReddit for input.
The Original Poster (OP), who goes by IsThisNormalStuff on the site, asked:
"AITA for thinking my daughter shouldn't pay rent?"
She explained:
"I have been a SAHM my whole marriage. My husband pays the bills. I keep house and raise my little ones. I also do things like money management and our taxes because I have an accounting degree."
"My oldest daughter calls me because she just recently moved in with her fiancé and he told her she has to pay half of rent and utilities. He makes a lot more than her because she's working part time so she has time to plan her dream wedding"
"Both his parents work and I know his mom makes more than his dad. My daughter (Sarah 24) and I was thrown back when she realized she had to split all of the bills in the marriage and pay for things like her wedding dress. It's put a damper on our wedding planning."
"I tried talking to her fiancé (Luke 32) saying his family situation was unique since his mom was making more. He rebuffed me saying it's unrealistic to think he would work and Sarah could just spend all of her free time wedding planning. He said she has a degree and she should get a full time job."
"Sarah and him both went to school for accounting and that's how he met her was at her internship. He works about 60 hours a week and I explained that with wedding planning asking her to work that much way too much on a girl her age."
"His Mother is feeding him the new wave feminism and I don't think it's a good life balance for this young couple. His mom is feeding my daughter that in this world you have to work hard and have tough love for you kids."
"Sarah called crying because her MIL yelled at her for being a gold digger and Sarah has moved back in with her best friend. My daughter is saying I gave her bad advice and now Luke wants to call off the wedding and wants his ring back. She's blaming it on me but I think Luke shouldn't have asked my daughter to pay half of his bills on top of wedding planning."
Redditors were then asked to judge who is in the wrong in this conflict based on the following categories:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
- NAH - No A**holes Here
Unsurprisingly, very few of them took her side and found her and her daughter's demands totally unreasonable.
"YTA as you gave terrible advise."
"A wedding is not a valid excuse to not work and plenty of people her age work those sort of hours."
"I'm not surprised that he called off the wedding as no one in their right mind would want to deal with someone who acts so entitled." --c3ry5
"The way OP said, 'his mom is feeding him the new wave of feminism' literally says a lot about OP. Her idea is the one that isn't the good balance for any couple."
"And OP, yes in this world you gotta work to earn money in order to live. You can't just mooch off another. There is no more 'blue is for boys and pink is for girls'. Your daughter is capable enough to o get a job and support herself and if she continues to listen to your terrible advise, she'll prolly end up alone. And if your daughter can't handle a job and wedding planning at the age of 25, she ain't ready for having kids or getting married either."
"...I'm not saying sahm is anti feminist. A woman and a man has every right to choose what they want in life but when the boyfriend made it clear how he doesn't want to be sole breadwinner in his future family, Op didn't like it."
"She clearly doesn't like the change in gender roles. I called OP that cuz the way she negatively said that sentence of new wave of feminism. She clearly didn't like it. That's what I said." --Anonymous33-
"She had me at first. I was like 'well, they should probably split the bills unevenly since he makes more…'"
"And then she very quickly lost me. She has to work part time to plan her wedding?? What?"
"She has to pay for her dress? Okay, well since OP is into tradition so much, OP should be the one paying for the dress AND the wedding."
"NEWS FLASH OP: a full-time job is generally 40 hours a week. Just because he works 60 hours doesn't mean she will." --ximxperfection
"YTA. I have never... not ever in my life... heard of someone who has to go down to part-time work to plan a wedding. I was a teacher working full time and doing after-school training while wedding planning. Wedding planning can be annoying and stressful, but if you need half a day to do it, every day of the week, there's something wrong."
"If I were this finance, I'd call off the whole thing and get her out of my house. The daughter has shown that she can't make logical decisions and that she just "expects" things to be paid for and taken care of. The daughter has also shown that she listens to her mom's terrible advice rather than common sense." --crystallz2000
"OP YTA. My God there is just SO MUCH to unpack here. OP I don't think you actually understand the definition of feminism. The short version is, women should have equal rights & opportunities. They should be able to decide for themselves, what is best for them & their lives."
"Whether a woman chooses to be a SAHM like yourself, or work like your ex-FSIL's mom, is HER DECISION. If your situation works for you & your family, great! But that doesn't mean Sarah's ex & his mom are wrong. It's 2022 & most women work outside of the home. Many of them even have families & (GASP) some make more than their partners😱."
"I honestly don't understand how Sarah & Luke dated, got engaged & decided to move in together without discussing finances. And he didn't ask her to pay half of "his bills". He asked her to pay half of THEIR JOINT BILLS. We call that 'being an adult.'"
"Luke's mom makes some valid points. Most people DO have to work hard to get anywhere & sometimes tough love IS necessary. I'm curious, why don't you think your daughter working is a 'good life balance for this couple?'" Why exactly do you feel Luke should bankroll your daughter's life on top of paying for the wedding?"
"Are you & your husband currently subsidizing her life? If you're more traditional & truly feel that Luke should fully take care of Sarah if they marry, are you & her father going to pay for the wedding, including her dress? Are you providing a dowry?"
"Honestly it doesn't sound like Sarah & Luke are compatible. It sounds like he wants a partner who works & she doesn't want to. If that's the case they should consider finding partners more inline with what they want. In the meantime, both you & Luke's mom may want to mind your own business & let your adult children make their own decisions.🤷🏽♀️" --Gravediggersdaughter
"Definitely YTA. There's so much wrong with this op I don't know where to start. Planning a wedding doesn't mean you don't have to work. Also, who the fu*k did she think was going to pay for everything for the wedding?"
"Surely not the grooms family, as that would be in line with that new feminist stuff, not traditional ways. Time to pony up that money op! Support your daughter until she is married and make sure you give a sizable amount of money to the new husband." --TemporaryStory573
"Don't forget 'Luke shouldn't have asked my daughter to pay half of his bills.' Mom is delusional in thinking that her daughter shouldn't pay half (or any?) of SHARED living expenses. This isn't the 1950s, you don't get to expect that you live for free and aren't responsible for paying your own way."
"YTA for making your daughter believe that your world view/that a man should provide all of the financial support is how the world operates. It's even more confusing since you seem to have a mindset out of the 1950s but don't hold the very traditional view that a bride buys her own wedding dress?"
"Good riddance for Luke if your daughter really embraced your ideas. Too bad for your daughter if she took your advice and it just ruined her engagement/marriage." --UnicornWellington
Hopefully OP can learn to stay out of her daughter's relationships in the future.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp