Intent is something that doesn't get a lot of attention these days.
Why we do something is sometimes more important than the thing that we did.
Sure, we talk about motive when discussing broken rules or broken promises, but the subject never seems to come up in relation to joy.
So, would the reason for someone's behavior change the consequence of that behavior?
That was the issue facing Redditor and Original Poster (OP) blackcompucase when she came to the "Am I the A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for judgment.
She asked:
"WIBTA if I didn't let my husband attend the baby shower or birth of our child?"
OP began with the background.
"My husband (29yo) and I (28yo) have a daughter (3yo), he was happy when I told him she was a girl."
"We're having another and when I had my ultrasound, I was told it was another girl, again my husband was Happy."
Then she got to the problem at hand.
"Turns out I was told wrong, and it's actually a boy we're having, ny my husband freaked out in excitement."
"His reaction to us having a boy was nothing like his either of his reactions to having a girl."
"He was actually jumping around and yelling, he immediately called all his friends and family, he kept hugging and swinging our daughter around telling her she's getting a brother."
"I confronted him about not being this excited about having girls, and he said 'cause I wanted a boy.'"
"I got so p*ssed off, I don't want him at the baby shower (I guess it's not really a baby shower as we're not asking for anything, but still) or the birth."
"He thought I was kidding at first, but once he realized I serious got really upset and started an argument over it."
OP was left to wonder,
"WIBTA if I didn't let him attend the baby shower or birth?"
Having explained the situation, OP turned to Reddit for judgment.
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided: YTA
Some felt OP was going too far.
"Excluding him from those events isn't going to change anything, other than deteriorating your marriage."
"He's still going to be the dad to both of these kids, regardless of how excluded he is."
"I think you need to communicate with him and tell him why you're upset, tell him about your fears (presumably that he'll favor the son etc) and work through it together." ~ stellabluebear
"Honestly, to exclude him from birth is just so extreme."
"I feel for the husband and the level of mental abuse he must take for this to be so easily considered."
"Guarantee she dishes out ultimatums all the time." ~ karmagettie
"Yeah, super toxic that OP would immediately think about weaponizing the child like that by stopping her husband from attending something as big as the birth of their child."
"I hope this relationships works out cause those kids are never going to see their dad if there's a divorce." ~ mrtrollmaster
There were also personal stories.
"I cried when I found out I was having a girl."
"I have a shit relationship with my mom and was so scared she wouldn't love me that I wanted a boy."
"My daughter is the best human I've ever met and I wouldn't trade her for anything but in the moment, I was upset."
"By the time I had my son, I wanted another girl."
"Lol. YTA."
"Just because he's really excited for a boy doesn't mean he has a problem with girls. If he's a good dad and husband then you need to let this go." ~ safarimotormotelinn
"My brother was the opposite! We have a shit relationship with our father (a generational history of the fathers of our family being shit) so he wanted a girl."
"He was raised by strong women and knew he would be able to raise a strong woman, he was scared about being able to help raise a good man."
"My nephew is almost 3 and my brother loves him."
"Sometimes it's hard cause he knows the only example his son has of a good man is himself."
"They're probably done with kids but if they do have another I know he'd love either or, but I think he'd hope for a girl lol." ~ Few_Yak_5834
"I wanted one of each gender and my wife wanted at least one of each gender but for practical reasons we're probably stopping at 2 total."
"We were happy for our first baby no matter the gender but we were disappointed that our second was the same (2 boys)."
"We didn't make a big fuss about it though and we try our best to treat the kids equally. A lot of couples we talk to want one of each as well."
"OP is TA for punishing husband for it." ~ tungsten_22
Not everyone saw this as a one-sided issue.
"ESH."
"The patriarchal societal expectations for having boys over girls is awful and damaging for everyone. I hope your husband doesn't treat your daughter badly."
"HOWEVER, you're going wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy overboard with your reaction to his sh*tty reaction."
"What you should be doing is sitting down with him and laying out expectations from him about how the two of you are going to raise both kids fairly and equitably." ~ Spank_Cakes
"ESH"
"He should not have shown this disparity of reaction to your daughter. She's young, but she's still old enough to pick up on biases."
"You need to decide how you wanna move forward with this relationship."
"Yeah his difference in reaction was shitty, but do you want to tank the entire relationship & marriage as a result?"
"Because excluding him from the birth is the kind of thing that creates a permanent rift in a relationship - you don't get to take that back or walk back from it."
"Drawing these boundaries then expecting the relationship to just function normally isn't reasonable." ~ thirdtryisthecharm
Some agreed with OP's proposed actions.
"NTA"
"Lol, nah."
"Miss me with the gender discrimination."
"Are you prepared for your son to become the golden child and your daughter 2nd class?"
"Both of them are gonna be screwed up if you don't take this seriously."
"Your daughter might only be 3, but she's already learning that her dad doesn't like her as much as an unborn boy."
"I wouldn't be able to come back from this." ~ faenerysdorkborn
"Ew these comments are weird and disgusting, some lady even admitted to being upset about it having daughters because she wanted boys for her husband."
"Idk this is very weird and sick. NTA I feel you might want too rethink not letting him at the birth etc but I completely understand why you feel the way you do!" ~ TheAngelzHaveReddIT
"For real. I worry for this kid— sounds like there are gonna be a lot of expectations put on him to be into 'boy' things and his dad will be disappointed if he doesn't, say, want to play baseball."
"Not to mention if he turns out to be trans, ya never know! Gender has very little bearing on what a kid will turn out to be interested in, and obsessing over it is unlikely to end well." ~ purgamentum_exit
Though not everyone even saw what OP's husband did wrong.
"YTA."
"So what if he is anxious for a boy. Plenty of parents, especially the wife, are desperate to have a girl. As long as he is a good parent to both and treats them fairly, then it should not be a problem."
"You've got some serious ovaries on you to think it's okay to exclude him from the birth." ~ FSF_VVG
"YTA."
"Regardless of gender, he was happy to have a boy or a girl."
"It's not a slight to you and it doesn't mean he prefers males over females in his gene pool. But to have a son to carry on his last name can be a big deal for men. Don't punish him for that." ~ Saraqael_Rising
"What's wrong with wanting a boy?"
"I really, really, REALLY wanted a girl and not a boy."
"I would've been ok/happy either way (long fertility journey, miscarriages, ivf, the works, so yeah I would've been happy with whatever I got) but I was THRILLED when it was a girl!!!!"
"I don't see the problem with wanting what you want."
"Unless you are South/East Asian where female children have been historically unwanted, demeaned, discriminated against and even killed."
"(But I think that has changed a lot with my generation compared to what it was in the past... everyone in my South Asian family & friends want girls now!)"
"Girls give you a lower risk of autism, especially since people are having kids later in life nowadays."
"I'm old and that was a concern. But it sounds like your husband didn't misbehave and act like an ass when he thought it was a girl."
"He was just happier with a boy because he wanted a boy more. I don't see the problem, and you are being very mean to him IMO."
"YTA." ~ terracef
Of course, we can't ever be sure of someone else's intentions.
The commenters above range from confused to concerned to condemning - for both sides of the argument.
We can't know the secrets in someone else's mind, but communication is always better than silence.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp