Being in recovery from alcohol addiction is a lifelong process.
People have their own ways of committing to their sobriety.
Not every person a recovering alcoholic encounters will agree with some people's ways to cope.
This can often spark a lot of debate.
Redditor marsalalover wanted to discuss their experience and get some feedback, so naturally, they came to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subreddit.
They asked:
"AITA for cooking with cooking wine when I am a recovering alcoholic?"
The Original Poster (OP) explained:
"I am a recovering alcoholic, and I have been sober for 4 years."
"One thing that came out of sobriety was my love for cooking."
"In the beginning, it kept me busy, and I didn't want to drink if I was not hungry."
"Now, I just love the process of making a delicious meal for myself and my loved ones."
"Recently I had my family over for a meal."
"One of the components of the meal was chicken Marsala."
"I love chicken Marsala."
"I make and eat it all the time."
"One of the ingredients is cooking Marsala wine."
"I brought out the meal and my sister asked what the chicken was, I said it was chicken Marsala."
"She asked if I used wine."
"I said I use cooking wine, not regular wine."
"This started an argument about me using and owning cooking wine as an alcoholic."
"My sister said that I am relapsing by cooking with it, and I have basically been lying to them about being sober."
"I argued back that you don't get drunk from eating food with cooking wine."
"You are ingesting some alcohol, but the whole recipe had 2/3 of a cup of wine, my portion has even less."
"I make this because it's delicious, not because it gets me buzzed."
"It also does not trigger any cravings for me to drink."
"If I buy a bottle, I use it to cook, and it sits untouched in the cabinet until I need it to cook next time."
"She ended up leaving and yelled at me not to talk to her until I'm actually sober.'"
"My mother agrees with me that I am not lying about sobriety by eating foods with wine in them."
"But when I looked it up online, there are some people who think that I am not being honest if I cook with alcohol."
The OP was left to wonder:
"AITA for cooking with cooking wine when I am a recovering alcoholic?"
Redditors shared their thoughts on this matter and weighed some options to the question AITA:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Many Redditors declared that OP was NOT the A**hole.
"NTA. I'm a recovering alcoholic, sober for 3 years."
"My rule of thumb is if a child can eat/drink something, so can I."
"There's some reasonable debate about N/A beer because it's not actually N/A; it's 0.5% ABV."
"I choose not to drink it because I never liked beer anyway, but if I did, I'd not consider it a relapse."
"The 12-step crowd not only has some pretty strict and extreme views on sobriety, but they're big on guilt and shame."
"If your sister is in AlAnon, that would explain this behavior." ~ MenorahsaurusRex
"If that's all you're using it for, that's a testament to your recovery."
"If you cook it properly, there's no alcohol content, so don't worry about your sobriety."
"And as a drunk who enjoys cooking, the cooking wine is the last thing I'll touch."
"Not strong enough to do much and more enjoyable in a sauce than anything else." ~ soreness
"I have some sober time."
"I cook with wine."
"Adds a great depth of flavor!"
"Once cooked there is a trace of alcohol left."
"A trace."
"Not enough to have the cops step up when you feed chicken Marsala to a child."
"Even my hard-a** sponsor didn't have a problem with me cooking with wine."
"Keep cooking with cooking wine and enjoy your food."
"Sis can pound sand and wind her damn neck back. NTA." ~ West_House_2085
"Most alcohol cooks off when you're cooking."
"As for having it in the house, if you're able to see it in the same way you see salt and pepper, I wouldn't worry."
"Your sister needs to have a little faith in you." ~ old_motters
"No! NTA!"
"The key phrases are all here."
"Sober. 4 years Replaced bad habits with good habits that use the cooking version of habit for flavor - not getting buzzed off food."
"But, your sister can have a completely different perspective when it comes to what constitutes sobriety."
"I don't think cooking wine is a bad idea."
"Food is my love language too." ~ i_really_needa_know
"NTA. Cooking with wine absolutely does not mean you have relapsed."
"If you were secretly drinking your cooking wine, it would be a different story."
"One problem that we face in sobriety (5 years for me) is that some people think we're always still wanting to drink or that if we were keeping secrets during active addiction, we can't be trusted now.
"It's frustrating, but we just have to live our lives and prove them wrong." ~ KatieGPotatie
"NTA. What a weird hill to die on for your sister."
"She obviously had no idea that you have been cooking with wine for however long now."
"As far as I can tell, that means you've shown no symptoms of being an alcoholic because, ya know, you're sober."
"For 4 YEARS."
"Congratulations, and just keep cooking."
"Your sister should come around when she realizes that cooking with something doesn't make you addicted to that thing." ~ Zenpora
"NTA. Children eat beer-battered fish or pasta with vodka sauce and it's perfectly safe."
"It adds flavor and texture, not alcohol content." ~ Pys70ph
"NTA this is such a bizarre extension of the abstinence model."
"S**t like AA pushes the myth that once you're an 'addict,' you can't so much as touch a drop of alcohol without 'falling off the wagon.'"
"It's so extremely harmful to those in recovery."
"If you're keeping it in the house without having the urge to chug it for the buzz, I'd say you're doing great." ~ cunninglinguist32557
"NTA. To start, your journey and sobriety is your own responsibility so it is what you say it is."
"Some people would say they fell off the wagon if they consumed any alcohol but if you don't agree that's your decision."
"Second, no. To me being sober is not about a trace blood alcohol reading, it's about behaviors, etc." ~ 4614065
"21 years booze free and usually use balsamic vinegar to good effect for most recipes that want wine."
"However, I cooked with white wine left at my house by a guest, and it didn't trigger a thing."
"I decided years ago to never drink again, and I'm not changing my mind. Your sister may just be concerned and afraid you'll go back."
"I get that."
"But you are NTA."
"Keep going strong, and fly yer own plane."
"You got this." ~ Itchy_Undertow-1
"NTA. We are 9 years sober."
"We eat beer batter items, cook with wine, etc."
"What is important is your intent."
"Your intent is not to escape, but to dine."
"Congratulations on your past 24 hours!" ~ Velma88
"I think totally avoiding a substance is still being tied to it."
"If you are able to have it in the house and show restraint, that shows actual healing instead of just running away from every trigger entirely." ~ reachmewitharay
OP responded...
"That's where I am at now."
"I can cook with alcohol and be ok at this point."
"Early in sobriety, if I had vodka in the house, I would drink it on a bad day."
"But I'm at the point now that when someone came over recently and gave me a fifth of vodka because they didn't know I was sober; I was able to let that sit for a long time because I am just not tempted to drink."
"Even when I go through a rough time."
"I used the vodka to make vodka sauce eventually, and it was tasty."
"I also don't mind if people drink around me or even if they bring alcohol to drink in my house."
"I'm happy and secure in my sobriety and have been for a solid couple of years now."
"Having alcohol in the house doesn't bother me."
"But I also don't see cooking wine as a drink, more like an ingredient like vinegar."
Reddit continued...
"NTA - You are in charge of your sobriety, not your sister or your parents."
"Eating Chicken Marsala doesn't break your sobriety, in my opinion."
"Following a standard where not even trace amounts of alcohol are allowed in the food that you eat, there would be so much that wouldn't be allowed."
"Is vanilla extract allowed?"
"Vinegar? Mustard?" ~ Taotipper
"NTA. Does she bake?"
"If so ask her what kind of vanilla she uses, because good vanilla is made with alcohol." ~ MistyPneumonia
"NTA. First off, congratulations on your continued sobriety."
"When you cook with alcohol, the vast majority of the actual alcohol is cooked away, so the amount you would be ingesting is minuscule."
"It sounds like your sister has some issues regarding either your previous alcoholism or someone else's."
"It might be something to try and discuss with her once things have cooled off a little." ~ Mindless-Client3366
"NTA... your sister is acting like you're out here getting drunk off your cooking wine, which says more about how she sees you than how you actually are as a person."
"Not to mention that she fails to comprehend that alcohol burns off while you're cooking."
"By the time you're done simmering your food, you've evaporated up to 95% of the alcohol content (depending on how long you're cooking for)."
"She's being ridiculous." ~ Cptbanshee
"NTA for a few good reasons."
"More and most importantly is genuine congrats on 4 years of sobriety."
"That's incredible!" ~ JunkDrawerExistence
"I was so confused for a minute before I realized you were not referring to the curry dish chicken masala, but to an Italian-American pasta dish I've never heard of, lol."
"Your family are idiots."
"The very act of cooking a wine makes it non-alcoholic."
"You'd be in more danger of getting drunk by eating rotting fruit than a dish cooked with alcohol. NTA." ~ DamnitGravity
"Recovering addict here."
"It doesn't matter what someone else defines my sobriety as because I know I'm sober."
"Someone else does not get to define what sobriety is for you."
"Definitely NTA." ~ KayCatMeow
"Hmm... NTA but I think you might want to consider your past with your sister - how affected was she by the time period when you were an alcoholic?"
"It could be that seeing you use the wine triggered memories or fears of that time for her."
"Maybe try approaching her with the perspective of trying to find out what she's thinking." ~ codeverity
"NTA I think that anyone who knows food/cooking knows that the alcohol pretty much just cooks out in dishes like this."
"Does your sister have a superiority complex?"
"I can't see why else she threw a fit and left, it is really odd behavior."
"Especially since she feeds her kids stew she's put wine in!!" ~JenninMiami
"NTA. Would she say this if you used traditional mouthwash?"
"You're just as likely to get a buzz off some Colgate as you are from that tiny amount of cooking wine (which is nasty)."
"Your sister is either ignorant of how addiction and sobriety really work, or she's intentionally making a scene for some reason." ~ Rep_girlie
Reddit is firmly on your side, OP.
Your sister was out of line.
Perhaps she should attend an Al-anon meeting to understand how people truly cope with sobriety.
She may be coping with her own issues surrounding your past alcoholism.
Stay strong.
And congratulations on your 4 YEARS!!!
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp