Grief is as individual as the people that experience it. Only the person in mourning knows what they can emotionally withstand.
A woman grieving turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback after a conflict with her family.
Throwra_71839 asked:
"AITA for leaving my dad's birthday dinner after overhearing my sister's comment about my miscarriage?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"A few months ago me (28, female) and my sister 'Eva' (33, female) realized that we were both pregnant—I'd say she was about 6 weeks further than I was. She's been struggling with infertility, so we were all happy for her. I have an older son (2, male) with my husband (32, male).
"Sadly, a couple weeks ago I lost my baby. We told my family. They were all supportive, but I did sort of pull away from them."
"They would've tried to avoid discussing Eva's baby around me, but I didn't want to overshadow her, especially since she's wanted this for a long time. I also didn't want to be reminded of my own loss whenever I saw her."
"I'm aware that her pregnancy isn't about me, but for the past few months we've been shopping for baby things together, looking at names, and being all excited for our babies to be so close in age and to dress them up together and things like that. Not being able to do that anymore hurts and makes the loss feel even bigger."
"And I wouldn't be intentionally overshadowing her, but I know that my family would try to be cautious around me if I was there because they would see it as insensitive. That would prevent them from discussing her pregnancy like normal which she deserves since this is such a big moment for her."
"So I haven't been to my parents' place for Sunday dinner since or really spent time with Eva, which we had been doing a lot before. I replied vaguely to any messages about my absence—wasn't the best communication from me."
"Yesterday my parents were hosting family dinner for my dad's birthday. I'd been thinking about going because I missed my family, and while of course the pain of losing my child has not faded, I'm at a point where I can at least put it a little to the side to be there for my sister and my new niece when she is born."
"So I let my family know that we would be coming. However, we had to get a gift for my dad and then my son had a bit of a tantrum, so we got to my parents' place about an hour late. I wished my dad happy birthday and then went to the kitchen, where my mom, Eva, and my sister-in-laws (SILs) were."
"But before I went in, I heard them say my name so I stopped."
"My mom was saying something like, 'Well I guess [OP]'s not coming' and Eva said 'What did you expect, she probably changed her mind and is just staying home again. Honestly, I'm sorry for her but you would think she was the first woman to ever lose a kid. And it's not even her first kid'."
"They then kept talking about other things, but I just wanted to leave."
"I went and got my husband, who was with my brother-in-law (BIL), dad, and brothers in the living room. I told my dad I was really sorry but we needed to go."
"They all protested, but my husband could see how upset I was so he didn't. We got my son and left."
"When we got home, I just kind of cried for a while. My husband asked me what happened and I told him."
"He was angry that she said that, but thought we shouldn't have abruptly left because my dad had been looking forward to seeing us, and my son missed his cousins."
"After this, I was feeling conflicted."
"Later my brother texted me saying my dad had been really upset about us leaving and brought it up at dinner, which caused a whole fight because mom and Eva realized that I must've heard them talking, and my dad was mad about it."
"My brother said that it was pretty bad and he wished I had just stayed so none of it would've happened, obviously Eva didn't mean for me to hear that, they were all just frustrated that I'd been AWOL for so long."
"Now I feel bad, because I didn't mean to ruin dinner. Obviously what Eva said was hurtful, but I can see how my actions might have led to her saying something out of anger, and I could've talked to her about it later instead of just leaving."
"I don't know, AITA?"
The OP later added:
"My family is the type to just drop by at each other's places and see one another multiple times throughout the week besides just Sunday dinner. Lately I've been kind of fending off any requests for people to visit."
"I just want to I guess emphasize how close my family is and how abnormal it is for me to not be seeing them regularly even for a little bit. I haven't been ghosting them, but I just text them saying 'I'm not feeling up to it' for dinner and kind of leave it there."
"My sister and my mom have always been closer to each other, as have me and my dad. Additionally, my brothers are closer to her since they're all closer in age."
"I mentioned this in a comment, but we didn't text anyone saying we were going to be late since my family is usually pretty lax about time. Me and my husband usually show up early though so it's unusual for us to be late and might've been why they thought we weren't coming."
"Also my son was continuing to be a handful all the way there, so that kept us busy and we kind of didn't think about notifying anyone."
"I've started looking into grief counseling, now that I feel like I can at least talk about it."
"As far as she's told us, my sister hasn't had a miscarriage before, she just had trouble getting pregnant to begin with."
"From what my brother told me, my sister and mom didn't admit to saying anything, they just kind of looked at each other once my dad mentioned me leaving, and he noticed and asked about it."
"Then one of my SILs who was also in the kitchen—my other brother's wife—mentioned what they said and my dad got mad."
"My other brother was also apparently angry with them and it just turned into my mom and sister trying to defend themselves, my dad and other brother yelling, and my brother—who texted me—trying to stay out of it."
The OP summed up their situation.
"I left my dad's birthday dinner with no explanation after hearing Eva's comment, which ended up causing a family fight when my dad brought it up and ruined the dinner."
"I could've handled it more maturely by talking privately with my sister, ensuring it didn't become a whole family problem."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole (NTA).
"Jesus Christ. What is wrong with your family? It's been weeks since you lost your baby. Weeks!"
"You missed, what, two or three Sunday dinners and this is how your mother and sister speaks of you? Then your brother wishes to rug sweep it all."
"Your family is clearly ridiculously non-confrontational, considering how it's been conditioned into you and your brother because I would have stepped into that room immediately after hearing something so vile and told my father exactly why I was leaving."
"However, I understand that it was shocking, so I don't blame you for just leaving as opposed to breaking down or making a scene there. Even your husband is acting like you should have played along in those circumstances."
"I can't imagine ever speaking about my sister, friend, coworker, or complete stranger like that. Not to mention her sister's bad karma and lack of empathy to spew that crap as a woman with fertility issues."
"OP pulled away out of a level of compassion. Once again, it's not like OP ghosted them and ran off, she was responding to messages. It was clear that she needed time, and two or three weeks is so minimal."
"NTA, OP, but my lord, you're related to some troglodytes."
"You need to sit down and talk to your dad. He's on the right side of this, but even so I don't believe he got the full story. There's no way they would own up to saying that." ~ xdem112
"Seriously, the most mature thing OP could have done after hearing those words from her family is quietly remove herself from the situation."
She didn't confront them and fight or demand an apology at the dinner, she didn't just sit there and ignore it while those words repeated in her head until her resentment built up and things got worse."
"If the words you choose can ruin an evening if someone else overhears them, it is entirely your fault for that evening being ruined."
"Even if OP's dad was the one to hear it, there would have been a negative reaction and cloud over the rest of the night. NTA." ~ TogarSucks
"Grief has no time limit. Recovery from a miscarriage sucks because hormones, pain, and suffering emotionally."
"The fact that your family thinks you needed to seemingly suck it up and get over it is ridiculous. So no you weren't wrong from taking time in dealing with your loss."
"Sounds like that they are more focused on your sister finally getting pregnant and they want you to do the same. It's like how dare you make your miscarriage about yourself, don't you know your sisters pregnant?"
"So your sister who has struggled with infertility finally gets pregnant and decides that a miscarriage is NBD because it happens all the time and you already have a kid?"
"Your brother is upset because the family fight wouldn't have happened if YOU JUST SUCKED IT UP AND STAYED? No consequence for your mom and sister?"
"I'm sorry, but HELL NO. NTA."
"Ask your sister if she remembers not being able to get pregnant and ask her to imagine what she would have done if she overheard you saying, 'She probably is staying home again. You know she isn't the first woman to suffer infertility. She can always adopt if she wants a kid so bad'."
"Yeah, your sister likely dreaded being around pregnant women and babies because of her struggles, even if she wasn't vocal about it, but now that she is pregnant and now the only pregnant sister, she thinks she can look down and judge you?"
"Imagine if it was reversed. I bet your family would be having her over for dinner and asking you to stay home because you were pregnant and it was too hard for her."
"I'm sorry, but she is a selfish jerk and I wouldn't accept any apology she gives, if she does. Remember she isn't sorry because she was wrong for what she said, she is sorry she got caught saying it."
"And your family is wrong for blaming you for being rightfully upset because your sister faced the consequence of voicing her thoughts out loud." ~ McflyThrowaway01
The OP provided an update:
"I want to thank you all for the support and feedback on my last post. This update is mostly about a few different conversations that I had."
"I took your suggestions and called my dad, apologizing for leaving early. He completely understood. We talked a bit and he asked if we could go out to lunch this week because he missed seeing me, so we made plans."
"Then, I talked to my husband and told him that I didn't think I could've stayed and still thought leaving was the best thing for us. He apologized for invalidating my feelings and said he would've liked for us to spend time with family, but not at the cost of my mental wellbeing."
"He offered to call my brother—not the one who texted me—to set up a playdate for our son with his kids so my son could see some of his cousins, which I appreciated."
"Later, my mom called—I guess my dad told her we talked—and she apologized for taking so long to call, saying she felt ashamed and didn't know how to talk to me. She said she wouldn't have let Eva say that if they'd known I was there and that she didn't mean it."
"Eva has been hormonal and frustrated, and my mom thought calling her out at that point would've just made things worse. She felt terrible for hurting my feelings. I thanked her for the apology, but told her I needed more time before meeting her."
After this, Eva texted me, and I wanted to hear her out, so I called. She apologized a lot and emphasized that she didn't mean it and regretted saying it, attributing it to the same thing my mom had."
"Apparently she and BIL also had a big fight about it when they got home, which delayed her talking to me."
"We had a long conversation, in which she confessed that she had a few early miscarriages before they even told us she was pregnant. But she felt she had to keep smiling through it, which made her slightly resent how I was handling my situation."
"I told her I was hurting and keeping my distance so she could enjoy her pregnancy. She felt bad for misunderstanding and thinking I was shutting everyone out."
"I assured her that this wasn't the case; I hadn't let anyone in, and with her being pregnant, it was tough for me. I wished her luck, but told her I hoped she could understand why I didn't think I could be there with her. She was sad, but agreed."
"We talked more, and by the end, things were better. I texted my family group chat with a long message about how I was feeling and why I would be taking space from meetups, because I feel I need it after this."
"While the apologies eased my mind and I can see myself forgiving them in the future, I am still hurting, and I think right now, I need to spend time with my husband and son and handle my grief with a professional."
"Thank you all again for reading this, and I hope this answers your questions about what happened next. Hope you all have a fantastic day!"
Space and time for grief is an excellent idea.
Getting professional help is a good idea as well. Hopefully OP is able to get the support and healing they seek.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp