Co-parenting is a fairly new social term.
A lot of it stems from changes in family dynamics and gender roles.
Whereas at one time mothers always got full custody and fathers mostly got weekend visitation, more and more parents are sharing custody equally.
But even when visitation was an occasional weekend for a few hours, new partners could cause unnecessary drama.
A mother dealing with conflict with her ex-husband's new significant other turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit for feedback.
Temporary_Guess_8379 asked:
"AITA for keeping my children home because my ex's new boyfriend talks bad about me?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"I (34, female) was married to my ex for 8 years before him coming out as bisexual. We divorced 3 years ago. We have two children together, ages 5 and 9."
"My ex started seeing this guy maybe a year ago, and they just recently met the kids. Apparently, this guy makes remarks about me all the time."
"He has so far told my children that I kept their daddy from being his true self, and how my ex-husband never loved me."
"My ex-husband and I got into an argument over text message while our children were at his house and his boyfriend was there. He said in front of my children that I'm just a bitter baby mama and said to them, 'Mama isn't that friendly, is she?'. The kids told me."
"If they didn't mention it, the children should have had no idea we were arguing to start with. I don't badmouth my ex. We had a very good marriage and no issues co-parenting these past three years until this man."
"I don't talk to my children about issues between my ex and I."
"He has made more comments than this and says only bad things about me to or in front of the children. I confronted them both about these things."
"They said I was blowing stuff out of proportion, and it wasn't that big of a deal. Then I said fine, I didn't want my children around his boyfriend if he was gonna talk about me like that."
"This caused a big argument, and he ignored my wishes anyways."
"Tonight, I kept my children home. When I asked if his boyfriend was there, he said yes and that he would be a part of our children's lives.
"I said, well, then I'm keeping the children tonight or any nights he planned to have his boyfriend there. I even threatened to put a petition for it in court."
"He called me a homophobic a**hole and said I couldn't control who he dates and that I was being a petty b*tch."
"I don't think I am because a grown man should not be talking to children that way about their mother."
The OP summed up their situation.
"I kept my children home because my ex's new boyfriend talks bad about me. He called me a homophobic a**hole and a petty b*tch for that."
"I might be the a**hole because it is his weekend with his kids."
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole (NTA).
"Document, document, document. But also follow court orders if you have a custody agreement. It's not homophobic to not tolerate parental alienation. NTA." ~ nocontactisthebest
"This 100%, and you're NTA. I feel for you. I have a text I saw on my kid's phone saying 'good thing your mom wasn't there, she would have punched _______ in the face'."
"Sadly, my stepson believes what is being said. It won't stop me from being the best stepmom I can be. One day, he will know how much I love him, and even if he doesn't, I know." ~ Rivieramaya
"NTA. Parental alienation is incredibly damaging for children. When they're young, it's very important that they can feel total trust for their caregivers. The boyfriend's comments are undermining this."
"It causes actual emotional damage and impairs their secure emotional development and confidence."
"It's absolutely OK for your ex and his new partner to have feelings about his journey and your role in it, but they must not speak about it in front of the children."
"You need to focus more on persuasion. At the moment, the boyfriend is in the ear of your ex, motivating him to be a bad parent."
"You need to have lunch or coffee with him alone as co-parents and be PERSUASIVE. He surely wants to be a good parent, so research the damage of parental alienation and explain it to him in a kind way."
"You need to play the long game here. Your aim is for your kids to have the benefit of an involved good father."
"So be persuasive, and get him on your side. You have many future years of co-parenting. Be smart." ~ HappySummerBreeze
"Document every instance that this has happened, and if it continues, bring him back to court. This can and will affect the kids in the future."
"In my state, it's automatically put into the custody arrangement that both parents cannot disparage each other around the kids. It's hard to prove, but it seems like you have the proof (kids' mouths are proof enough). Good luck. NTA." ~ Just_Stop7538
"Well said. I want to add that kids perceive themselves as being made of 50% of each parent."
"If one parent trashes the other to the kids, the kids will process this as 50% of them is trash. This is one of the reasons kids of divorced parents have to deal with low self-esteem."
"If your ex cares about his kids, he needs to shut his bf's behavior quickly."
"I'm divorced, and if my boyfriend was trashing my ex to my kids, I'd tell him to get lost. Kids first, always, because they need support to grow into healthy adults." ~ MonstreDelicat
"NTA—do you have a custody agreement in place? Because you might be in violation of the order if you don't allow your ex-husband to see his kids during the allotted parenting time."
"His bf seems jealous of you and threatened by the relationship you had. It's inappropriate for your ex's partner—no matter what gender or orientation—to disparage anyone, let alone a mother, in front of children. What a gross way to behave." ~ pasmain
"NTA, time to get the courts involved. Parental alienation is a thing, and it sounds like husband and boyfriend are engaging in it." ~ PifftheCat
"If you never badmouth them, but they do you, I'd simply say to your children: 'I love your dad because he helped create you both, and I love you both so much. I try to be as respectful as I can, but I am upset since your dad and his boyfriend say mean and untrue things about me. They should not be saying these things, especially in front of you."
"But, yes, maybe time for the courts. NTA." ~ Sassypants2306
"Even if they have a 'reason' for badmouthing her, there still isn't ANY excuse to do so in front of the children."
"My biological mother was a addict and a sex worker, and my (eventual adoptive) parents never talked crap about her in front of me. They'd simply state she wasn't able to be the mother I deserved at that time, but she did love me very much."
"Incredibly diplomatic to somebody who honestly did not deserve it."
"What the boyfriend is doing, and the ex is enabling, is what a court would consider parental alienation. And parents will lose custody because of this stuff."
"They need to get their sh*t in check quick. NTA, OP. And keep the receipts every time this happens bc I feel like it's going to end in court eventually." ~ Samiiiibabetake2
"NTA. Whatever the boyfriend thinks about you, putting you down in front of the kids is out of bounds. More importantly, the fact that your ex allows it is worse."
"Do you have the right to keep the kids? If you have full custody, maybe, but watch out for interfering without the backing of the court, as that could be used against you."
"Record some instances, and then take it to the court. You can have rules put in place about who has access to the children, but you can also have rules put in place about monitored visits if the boyfriend cannot control what he says on his own."
"Will that work? I wish I could assure you about it, but I cannot. I hope bringing it to the court with recorded evidence will make your ex realize exactly what's happening and how inappropriate it is." ~ rockology_adam
"NTA. He called you a homophobic a**hole because you do not want your children around a man that bad mouths you in front of your children?"
"Honestly, I don't care which way your ex-partner swings, but that sh*t is not on. It simply isn't."
"The sad part is that he's probably too infatuated to think straight. As a parent (be that a mother or in this case, a father) you have responsibilities to more than your sex life. You have children, and they should be your priority."
"My advice is to go to court and have any access tightened up with your ex-husband's partner not allowed around your children if you can. No idea how this works where you are, but it might be an option."
"Also, make sure you have any alimony and child maintenance still being paid. If not, it might be something you want to take back to court as it will help you in getting primary or sole legal custody over your children. Good luck." ~ skiveman
Many suggested that the OP take their ex back to family court.
But one important thing not enough people emphasized was that the OP should never violate an existing custody order as a response to behavior they dislike.
It can seriously jeopardize their legal standing and custody rights.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp