A big conversation a couple has to have before they get married or commit to staying together long-term is whether or not they want to have children and how big they want their family to be.
Every once in a while, someone will change their minds, but just like when they were dating, both people have to agree to the new idea, or the relationship might be over, cautioned the members of the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITAH) subReddit.
Redditor Tdwy837 had been with his wife for almost two decades, they shared three children, and up until the last year or so, they had been very happy.
But when issues started to arise, including his wife demanding that they double their family in size, the Original Poster (OP) wasn't sure his marriage was meant to last.
He asked the sub:
"AITAH for telling my wife we either go to marriage counseling or I will file for divorce?"
The OP and his wife's marriage was dissolving over a variety of issues.
"My wife (31 Female) and I (32 Male) have been together for 11 years and married for six years."
"We have three young kids together, and our marriage is falling apart, and my wife doesn't want to change a thing."
A major issue was doubling the size of their family.
"One of our biggest issues is the topic of more kids. My wife has decided that three is nowhere near enough, and she wants to have several more children."
"She wants at least three more, but she likes the idea of even more than that, while I'm done with the three we have."
"She has tried to tell me we'll be having at least three more kids, and there's nothing I can say or do to stop it. So we haven't had sex in five months."
"She has called me an a**hole, has accused me of hating our kids, and when I tell her to stop saying it, she says I must hate them to not want more of them."
"She shuts down any concerns I bring up, and she never has an answer to where we'll get the money or time for three or more extra kids."
"Plus, her last delivery was difficult, and they told us they wouldn't recommend many more pregnancies for her. She doesn't care, and she told me this."
"She says not giving in makes me manipulative."
The couple also could not agree about the time they were spending with their children.
"One of our other big arguments is over time with the kids. We both work, and I feel like we should both be involved with the kids and taking care of the house."
"She tries to hog all the time when we're not working. She has told me she doesn't want me to take time with our kids from her, and I have told her I just want to spend some time with them, too."
"The times I do have the kids, she acts like she doesn't get to see them for weeks, even though we live in the same house. I leave her to do everything else, even though I do my fair share."
"I have tried to suggest we figure out a schedule or just do things as a family, but she says I'm not going to take over the kids and leave her cleaning after work."
"I can't bring up sharing time with the kids and chores because she's not okay with it being mentioned."
Tensions were rising about other issues, as well.
"Another of our big issues is money. We disagree on how we spend, save, and utilize the money we earn. It actually comes back to the topic of having more kids and how we spend time with our kids now. She doesn't have any concern for financial stability, and I do."
"There are other smaller things we fight about, too. None of those are as frequent or as long-standing."
"But for a year now, our marriage has been falling apart, and she speaks to me like she hates me 80% of the time. There's no middle ground or talking things through because she resorts to name-calling."
The OP reached a point where he gave his wife an ultimatum.
"After trying to speak with her and asking for therapy before, and her turning me down flat, I reached the end of the line. I started therapy on my own and booked us a marriage counseling session, but she didn't show."
"After a few more individual sessions, I told my wife it's either marriage counseling or divorce, because I don't want to raise our kids hearing these daily fights and feeling caught between feuding parents day after day."
"My wife said it wasn't my call to say either or, and if I really cared, I would be fighting harder for our marriage.
"AITAH?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
Some reassured the OP that he had already fought for his marriage before the ultimatum.
"Did you actually mean it when you said it's either marriage counseling or divorce?"
"If you actually meant it, then you're not the AH because you are simply stating what your boundaries are here. Marriage counseling IS fighting hard for your marriage. And if she refuses marriage counseling, you have to actually follow through and start seeking divorce."
"But if you only said it to pressure her and are unwilling to follow through with divorce if she refuses, then you would be just emotionally manipulating her, which would make you an AH, even if she's one too."
"Either way, she's definitely being an AH in this situation, especially when she says you don't get a say in whether there will be more kids. That's so far from reasonable that it makes me think this may even be a mental illness problem for her." - Pandoratastic
"Marriage counseling IS fighting hard for your marriage! It is WORK. It's going to be uncomfortable, emotional, and probably very painful to work through all the years of hurt."
"It's rebuilding your marriage in a healthy way with open communication. It's taking responsibility for your own words and actions, no matter how awful they may have been."
"But one thing it's not is a one-man or one-woman show. BOTH people have to really want to do the work, to make things better for themselves and for their family."
"OP, if your wife refuses therapy/marriage counseling, this isn't sustainable. In fact, it's downright toxic for the whole family. She's made her choice. Time for you to make yours." - royalsgirl78
"Fighting harder for your marriage... OP's wife, honey, he can't fight for his marriage if it's you he's fighting."
"And instead of asking if you don't love your kids, OP, I'd ask why SHE doesn't love them. Are they not enough? And why is she obsessed to a point where she will go against doctors' advice, and risk her health, or maybe even her life, to pop out more and more... and more?"
"I wouldn't wait for this to escalate any further. And I hope you already talked to a lawyer. You know she's going to go for full custody, if she can't even 'share' the kids while married."
"Are you truly nothing more than a sperm donor to her, at this point? I fear marriage counseling would never get through to her. She might need psychiatric help."
"NTA." - Baudica
"NTA! Divorce her and you'll get fifty-fifty time with the kids, perfect share, she can find as many baby daddies she needs to get those extra kids, and everyone's happy!"
"Maybe you'll find a good stepmom to your kids that will be there for them once their mom starts neglecting them for her new kids."
"Yup! Divorce it is!" - MildLittlRain
"NTA. You can't save a marriage where there is no respect. She does not respect you. She doesn't want to hear a thing you have to say."
"She refuses to look at the logistics or financials that are involved in having more children; she flat-out told you that you WILL be having more children, and there is nothing you can do to stop it."
"Time to see a divorce lawyer to make sure you get equal time with your children." - New-Comment2668
Others gave the OP advice about what to do next.
"After our second child, we had a conversation about family size. All my wife's family members have lots of kids, like between five and nine."
"After child two, I told her that, after a lot of thought, I was okay with having one more. And that was when our third was one year old and past the window for SIDS, I would be getting a vasectomy."
"I told her to take her time thinking about it because I knew it was an important life decision."
"I also told her that if three wasn't enough for her, no harm, no foul, we could amicably part ways and she could have as many kids as she wanted with husband number two."
"She agreed to three, I got my vasectomy on schedule, and we had no tension over it." - mem2100
"Why haven't you gotten a vasectomy? You need to divorce this woman now, and since you don't want any more children, you don't need to put birth control on your future partners."
"NTA for your ultimatum, but this marriage can't be saved. At least you'll be able to spend time with your kids once you get 50/50 custody." - Fragrant-Point2278
"You can love as many children as you have, but the more kids you have, the less time and money is available. The children you have deserve one-on-one time, not being compelled to bring up their siblings because there are so many of them."
"People can be hoarders of people and animals, as well as possessions, and your wife needs a mental health evaluation, especially as she feels she can tell you that you don't love your own children because you don't want more."
"Your children deserve two divorced parents who both put them first rather than living in the war zone of her creation. She sounds like she expects to get her own way even when it disadvantages everyone else." - TheNinjaPixie
"It looks like your wife is addicted to having children to avoid your relationship problems or her personal problems. If she doesn't agree to marriage counseling, it sounds like the end of your relationship."
"Also, if you won't get her pregnant, watch out for her cheating to get pregnant with someone else, hoping you would accept the new child. Get your exit plan ready." - Nice-Pomegranaate2915
"Time for a divorce. But you are going to have to seek joint custody."
"And if you are in a one-party video recording State, I would start secretly getting video of her trash-talking you and saying you hate the kids cause you won't have more. This is enough to point towards parental alienation. And it will affect custody."
"You are no longer at the point where you need to be asking if you should get a divorce; you are at the point when you need to plan an exit."
"And this may take a couple of months:"
"1. If you don't have a separate bank account, now is the time. All work checks should go into there."
"2. Start gathering your paperwork. Make copies of everything. This doesn't have to be a big, bulky file. It can go on a thumb drive."
"3. Rent a storage locker to keep your hard copy paperwork and any items you don't want her to destroy in a fit of anger. She sounds like a very manipulative person who is fully capable of doing so."
"4. Copy all family photos and documents onto a thumb drive."
"5. Find a good lawyer."
"6. Work with your therapist for an exit strategy."
"NOR and good luck. It sounds h**lish living with her." - PolkaDotDance
The subReddit was shocked by how the OP's marriage had dissolved and urged him to find an exit point. He needed to plan for divorce and shared custody, so that he and his wife could still have time with their children without having to spend time with each other and without having to pretend that they still had the same goals in life anymore.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp