Planning a guest list for a wedding is always a challenge.
As of course, everyone wants to invite all their nearest and dearest to join in celebrating their special day.
Which more often than not simply isn't possible, based on how many people the venue permits, not to mention the sheer cost of it.
Of course, on the flip side, brides and grooms-to-be also frequently find themselves agonizing over whether it would be wrong not to invite someone.
Such was the case for Redditor throwawaynoplusone, who did not see eye to eye with her cousin's fiancé, and thus did not want him at her wedding.
But wondering if this wouldn't go over well with her cousin and the rest of her family, the original poster (OP) took to the subReddit "Would I Be The A**Hole" (WIBTA), where she asked fellow Redditors:
"WIBTA if I don't give my cousin a +1 for my wedding and intentionally excluding her fiancé?"
The OP first explained how her and her fiancé's determination to have a small wedding was complicated by the fact that she had a big family.
"My fiancé (32 M[ale]) and I (33 F[emale]) just got engaged three weeks ago and are planning our wedding for fall of next year."
"We've started on the guest list: must invites, maybe invites, and who gets +1s."
"We're trying to keep things as small as we can, but I have a HUGE family."
"Between my mom's side of the family and my dad's, I have 19 cousins, the youngest being 12 and me being the oldest."
"While I'm not close with most of these cousins, I am close with the 5 on my mom's side."
Further complicating matters was the fact that she explicitly did not want the fiancé of one of her cousins at her wedding, and made no secret as to why.
"The second youngest cousin on my mom's side, Julie(19 F), got engaged in November to Jack(21/22M)."
"To put it nicely, Jack is the scum of the earth."
"And yes...that is being nice."
"Jack is a misogynist, a racist, anti-LGBTQ, anti-vax/science, a hypocrite, and a compulsive liar."
"He openly makes his opinions known and ignores requests/attempts to change the topic when he is being openly offensive."
"He has 'joked' about assaulting women, ripping out IUDs, mocking SA victims, etc., and has made homophobic remarks in front of Julie's bi and gay siblings."
"He often becomes combative when called out as well."
"But Julie is head-over-heels for him."
"Ah, young love, am I right?"
"My fiancé and I do NOT want Jack at our wedding and have no intention of giving Julie a +1 for him."
"Even if they get married between now and then, we still don't want to invite him."
"Her three older siblings are all getting to bring the significant others [SOs]."
"The two oldest are married, and the third will have been with his boyfriend for about 3 years, they've known each other for about 10 years now, come next fall."
"We adore all three of these SOs...they're all genuinely good guys and we like being around them."
"We don't plan on blatantly putting on the invitation 'Jack is not welcome' or anything like that...the plan would be to only put her name on the invitation with 'RSVP for 1', and if she asks about bringing him, just telling her no."
"'No' is a complete sentence, after all."
"My fiancé and I both know this will upset Julie, especially if we don't give her a reason why."
"And we certainly don't plan on telling her the true reason that he will not be welcome."
"So, WIBTA for not giving my cousin a +1 for our wedding?"
Fellow Redditors weighed in on where they believed the OP fell in this particular situation by declaring.
- NTA: Not the A**hole
- YTA: You're the A**hole
- ESH: Everybody Sucks Here
- NAH: No A**holes Here
While the Reddit community was somewhat divided on whether or not the OP was the a**hole, everyone was generally in agreement that the OP probably should think twice about her plan.
The general consensus was that even if the OP was justified in not wanting Jack at her wedding, it was probably wise to discuss the situation with Julie before sending out an invitation, or possibly not invite Julie either.
"I will say NTA."
"BUT I think you should tell Julie why you're not inviting him."
"I just think leaving her in mystery about it isn't necessary."
"Jack makes violent and offensive comments and is unwelcome at your wedding."
"I agree his views are abhorrent, focus on his behavior and not his views though when presenting it to Julie."
"Alternatively, I think you could also just choose not to invite Julie as well, since she seems to be ok with his bullsh*t?"
"Idk."
"Anyway, NTA."- andromache97
"NTA, but I agree with people asking you to consider whether Julie should be invited either, considering that her being engaged to Jack is a tacit endorsement of his views, in that silence is complicity and certainly so is choosing to marry the guy."
"And whether you do or don't agree to invite her, you should be open with her about why Jack isn't welcome under any circumstance."
"I don't think a person who 'jokes' about pulling out an IUD would hesitate to crash a wedding."-CafeConCajeta
"NTA, and you need to step back and take a larger view."
"This isn't really about your wedding."
"It's about your young cousin."
"If you are close to her, it's well past time to sit down with her."
"Tell Julie that you are worried about her."
"She stays silent in the face of Jack's awful rants."
"There are very few options here:
"She believes as he does."
"She thinks she can 'save' him."
"She is being abused and doesn't know how to leave him."
"She is being controlled by him and starting to believe the same things, as he warps her thinking."
"Lay that out, and see what she says."
"If she tries to deflect ('He doesn't really think that!'), then say you don't know what's in his heart, but you know what he says and does."
"Bring it back to being worried about her."
"Press hard on her integrity, on living her values."
"Right now, she is a person who tolerates that kind of bigotry."
"Is that who she wants to be?"
"She will become known as the woman married to that ___________________ ."
"Is that what she wants?"
"Life's too short--and she's too young--to waste one more day of her life with that guy."
"You might have the power to help her see that."- karskipellis
"YTA for not telling your cousin why."
"NTA for not wanting him there."
"I read your explanation."
"Tell your cousin just that."
"She needs to learn people will cut her off if she stick with him."- MerlinBiggs
"It is your wedding and your guest list."
"You can allow or disallow anyone you wish for any reason or no reason."
"Specifically as it relates to that invitation question, NTA."
"However, if you continue as is, be prepared to lose the relationship with Julie."
"There is no way for her to take this other than a direct snub because she is being singled out."
"If you have a good relationship with Julie, it may be worth your while to tell her that you would love to have her at your wedding but that you cannot invite Jack."
"And tell her exactly what those reasons are in a clinical non-confrontative way."
"This way you are respecting her as a person, she may even learn about toxicity as she is forced to examine Jack's actions, and you ensure he is not a guest."- sucksatchess666
After reading what the Reddit community had to say regarding this situation, the OP later offered an update as to how she planned to proceed with this rather delicate issue.
"First off, I have read every single comment, even if I haven't responded to them all."
"After reading so many comments stating this, I realize that it would be a**holeish for not at least having conversation with Julie and to just send her a solo invitation."
"I think I needed a solid smack to the back my head to recognize that my tendency to avoid confrontation is only going to cause more problems in both the short and long-term."
"While I am very open and communicative with those I am closest to (my sister, fiancé, parents, closest friends), I usually avoid the 'icky' stuff when it comes to people I'm slightly more distanced from and in this situation, that just won't work."
"I appreciate all of you that gave me that much-needed nudge."
"A lot of you gave me some great advice on how to open this dialogue with her and I'll be stealing some of the wording you gave me."
"I said in one reply that along with being non-confrontational, I also tend to lean more on the emotional side, which often leads to rambling and not being able to make myself clearly understood."
"My fiancé is the exact opposite and has said that while he agrees with me entirely, Julie is my family, so any decisions on this are ultimately my call, and though he will be there with me if I want him there, it is a conversation that I have to start."
"The ideas given by some folks perfectly encapsulated what I want and need to say without letting emotions get the better of me."
"So thank you from the bottom of my heart."
"Never having been on the sending end of initiations and with this being such an unfamiliar situation from my side, I had no idea how to even being plotting the best course through the unknown territory."
"Even at 33, it's easy to get lost sometimes and that's exactly what had happened to me."
"Thank you all again!"
It's easy to understand why the OP doesn't want Jack at her wedding, or why she was hesitant to explain why she didn't want him there to her cousin.
But as many members of the Reddit community pointed out, this issue seems to be much bigger than whether or not Jack deserve's a spot on the guest list.
So unpleasant as it's likely to be, it's a conversation the OP and her cousin need to have.
Here's hoping it goes as well as it can, and that the OP's wedding is a joyous and conflict free day.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp