One thing we can all agree on about religion is that most people don't agree about religion.
While numerous religions exist, there exist even more ways in which people practice religion... or don't.
And many times, children raised in a religious household go on to find their own ways to implement their religious beliefs in their adult lives... or not.
Sometimes children and their parents don't see eye to eye at all on religion. In this case, should the parents' views be forced on the children?
A teen on Reddit who recently moved in with his biological father, with whom he had no previous relationship, is being forced to practice his new family's religion despite the fact he is an atheist, so he turned to the "Am I The A**hole" (AITA) subReddit to seek feedback from fellow Redditors.
Redditor Complex-Guarantee253 asked:
"AITA for telling my newfound father and his wife that I'm not going to take part in their religion ever?"
The Original Poster (OP) explained:
"I met my father in September of last year. I (16/m[ale]) was 15 at the time, had recently lost my mom to cervical cancer and had found out that my grandparents and two of my aunts did not want to keep taking care of me."
"And instead of letting me go to my aunt out of state, they contacted the man who wanted nothing to do with me before and involved a social worker so I would need to go to him instead of the aunt I actually knew and who did want me."
"Because a social worker was involved she made the effort to put me with my biological father over my aunt."
"I pleaded with her to let me live with my aunt and my aunt pleaded for this as well but we were denied."
"I was told a biological parent will always get custody over an aunt or uncle who has no legal rights to the child."
"Especially when my original guardians (my grandparents) sent me to my father instead."
"So in October, 3.5 weeks after I met him for the first time, I moved to another state to live with my father and his family."
"For those who will tell me I was lied to or whatever, my father has admitted he knew about me but he was disgusted and embarrassed by his promiscuous ways in the past and for having pre-marital sex and he decided to start over."
"He said his wife was thankfully 'very open-minded' and was happy for me to live with them and have a relationship with them despite my origins... which have f**k all to do with me."
"My father and his wife are very religious. I'm not."
"I was raised by an atheist mom, had a mostly atheist family and I have no interest in joining or taking part in anything religious."
"This is a serious point of contention with my father and his family who try taking me to church and try to set it up so I will join their church and get baptized."
"I have refused."
"I have also said I want to live with my aunt. But that gets denied."
"I do talk to her via dms and video calls but it's not the same."
"She did try to petition for custody but the different states thing added complications, especially when a social worker is still actively involved."
"Things got way more tense recently because two of my father's other kids were questioning me on why I don't pray and stuff like that and I told them I didn't believe, they tried to get me involved with their church stuff and I said no."
"They got upset and tried to do all this converting stuff and they're only middle schoolers for f**k sake."
"My father tried telling me I shouldn't shoot it down so quickly and he told me to give it a try and I said no."
"Then his wife decided to get her say and she told me I should be grateful for a chance to be saved and I'm being very stubborn and should show them respect as my parents to let them guide me into religion."
"I told her they are not my parents, they are randos I'm forced to live with and I will never take part in their religion ever and they need to accept that because I don't believe in God or anything."
"They didn't like my 'closed mindedness' and they were pissed I spoke to them 'with such finality.'"
"AITA?"
Redditors weighed in by declaring:
- NTA – Not The A**hole
- YTA – You're The A**hole
- NAH – No A**holes Here
- ESH – Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was not the a**hole.
"NTA."
"Am I right in understanding that your bio father does want you to live with them now, despite having nothing to do with you in the previous 15-16 years, and you having the other (and preferred) option?"
"This seems enough to label him as an a**hole already."
"Trying to indoctrinate you?"
"As long as it's not forceful or has other important things contingent on it, it's not too bad, but you definitely have a final say." - Irhien
"NTA, you've handled this like an adult."
"Continue petitioning the social workers and court system to live with your preferred relatives during these next 2 years." - analyst19
"I am so sorry that you've been forced into this situation."
"I wish for your sake that your grandparents had been more understanding of where you wanted to live."
"NTA in this situation."
"I think emancipation for minors is a difficult thing to accomplish in most states - for one thing, you typically have to prove that you are financially independent, which would mean a job making enough money to support yourself."
"If you just leave and go to your aunt's house, there are apt to be some legal repercussions for her for providing a 'runaway' minor a place to live."
"All you can do is keep pushing the social worker to support your move to your aunt's house."
"Hopefully as soon as you turn 18, at the very latest, you can get out of there and go stay with your aunt while you find your feet as an adult." - Own_Lack_4526
"NTA."
"Nobody should be forced into a religion--much less by someone they hardly know."
"You should see if your aunt can get a lawyer involved to try to emancipate you earlier, and/or protect her visitation rights."
"Good luck." - zippy_zaboo
"NTA tell them either they send you to live with your aunt or you will corrupt their children."
"Start telling them about sex positivity and how religion is a means to control unruly children and brainwash adults."
"Go all in until his wife demands he send you away to protect her kids."
"Problem solved" - mocha_lattes_
"NTA. Talk to your aunt about finding a pro bono attorney or child advocate."
"At 16, you should be able to decide where you want to live." - HugeNefariousness222
"NTA. It is NEVER ok to force religion on ppl."
"Especially someone who doesn't believe & didn't grow up in a religious household."
"Religion is personal. It is something that a person needs to discover on their own."
"Your family sucks & I'm so sorry they are forcing you to live there."
"If they continue trying to force religion on you, tell your social worker."
"And if they step out of line even a little bit, tell your social worker."
"You should be telling your social worker everything, so that they can decide if the situation needs to change." - NOTTHATKAREN1
"I am dismayed that at 16 you are not allowed to choose who you wa t to live with."
"Can't the social worker see how incompatible you and this family are? NTA" - Recent-Wind4241
"I got to ask do you know if your social worker was religious too?"
"By any chance does she belong to the same church?"
"Anyway this is why I believe every child should have a lawyer who looks out for their wants and needs before a judge."
"Parents are not the right choice always."
"NTA I suggest telling your story far and wide school, church, friends."
"Be sure to point out he never paid child support, never acknowledged you and is ashamed of you because you were born out of wedlock and is trying to force you to become religious."
"If he gets shamed enough he might let you go."
"If forced to go to church ask embarrassing questions about all the bad things God does in the bible, believe me it easy to find."
"You might want to read it just to ask embarrassing questions at home." - No-You5550
"NTA"
"While it may be tempting to embarrass or humiliate them in front of their church, I would avoid going out of your way to do so."
"Keep a civil tongue, avoid losing your cool."
"As your legal guardians they are able to make your life miserable in ways that will follow you into adulthood by harming your education or employment opportunities."
"Demonstrating that you're keeping a level head may undermine attempts to make you seem wild or out of control, and it may result in you being able to get out from under their roof sooner if you keep pursuing custody changes." - Odd-Combination2227
While OP's fellow Redditors agree he is not in the wrong for refusing to let religion be forced on him, it sounds like the road ahead may be bumpy.
Hopefully, he can take some of the advice and consult with the proper professionals who can help him get out of this situation or, at the very least, make it a less miserable one.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp