Dating when you already have children can be hard, but it's especially hard when a well-meaning friend or family member gets in the way.
One Redditor "Equal_Fruit" is a widower who recently asked his eight-year-old son's school teacher out on a date. His sister didn't like the idea and told their mother, which he vented about on the "Am I the A**hole?" (AITA) subReddit.
The Redditor asked the thread:
"[Am I the a**hole] for losing my s**t on my sister for telling our mother about my personal life?"
He explained first how he and the teacher became close.
"I'm a widower with an 8-year-old son."
"His teacher is new in our town (she only arrived last September) and lives in our block, we're practically next-door neighbors. Like, if we're out on our balconies we can see each other and talk."
"She obviously knew no one here, so over these past few months and especially during the lockdown, we grew kinda close."
"We had a bit of a moment the other day, I asked her out, she said yes. But we both decided to wait until the school year was over."
He shared the news with his sister, who did not react the way he was expecting.
"I called my sister to tell her and she called me an a**."
"She said that I shouldn't be doing that to my son, because it's not uncommon for boys his age to develop crushes to their teacher and that I don't want to make things complicated for him."
When he didn't agree with her logic, his sister became more persistent.
"I told her that she doesn't know what she's talking about cause I was sure my son couldn't care less since he already has a crush on a classmate of his. And also I wasn't asking for her advice, I was just calling her with some good news."
"She doubled down and told me that I was being irresponsible because 8-year-olds can be very fickle and get 3 different crushes in one week, so I shouldn't count on him not becoming jealous of me."
Then the sister changed tactics.
"I told her that that was it with this discussion and I'd hear no more. If his teacher thought there'd be no problem, then there was no problem."
"She apparently thought that wasn't a good enough point either, cause since isn't the most experienced teacher (she's 25 and has only been working for a couple of years)."
"And then [she] started saying how she's too young for me anyway (I'm 35) and that I always try to date younger and that maybe it's time to look for women my age."
Upset, he ended the call.
"She wasn't as aggressive with that last remark, but it still stung and I was already a bit riled up from what she had said previously, so I just told her that I had enough and hung up before I lost my temper."
But that wasn't the last phone call he received that day.
"2 hours later, my mum called me and started saying the same things, parroting my sister. I tried to calm her down and promised that I'd be extra careful and that'd I'd break up at the first sign of trouble."
Needless to say, he was furious.
"But then I immediately called my sister and... yeah, it wasn't pretty. I told her that she should have never involved our mother in this and that the last thing I wanted was to have her following my disappointing love life so closely."
"I may or may not have called her various names, but I felt that she had no right to do that and it was a huge breach of trust."
His fellow Redditors wrote in anonymously, commenting on the OP's (Original Poster's) story using the following scale:
- NTA: "Not the A**hole"
- YTA: "You're the A**hole"
- ESH: "Everybody Sucks Here"
- NAH: "No A**holes Here"
Though the conversation did not focus particularly on the rating scale, there were questions about the sister's logic.
One Redditor pointed out that, though she may be trying to help, the sister's mentality around entitlement could be dangerous.
"I also have a question, why were you not already angry when she started spouting off that pretty much guano psychotic bullshit and ridiculous arguments?"
"I also would like to offer some advice on that potential development. If your son develops a crush on your partner in the future and get jealous of you then you deal with that then, same thing if he develops a crush on anyone else and get jealous at someone."
"You don't reinforce that kind of entitlement to other people, which is exactly what your sister is advising you to do. If you back off like your sister wants you would be teaching him that he is entitled to other people regardless of what they or their partner wants and that's frankly both toxic and dangerous."
"That would be teaching him that women are things that he is entitled to if he wants it and no one else is allowed to "steal" those things "from him". This is incredibly troubling to be honest and bigger issue imo."
"Also NTA." - GaiasDotter
A couple Redditors also pointed out how hard this could be on the son if the relationship didn't work out.
"I think the only concern I'd have on dating a teacher is a) to wait until the kid isn't in her class so nobody can accuse her of favoritism, b) make sure she knows if her school has its own policy first, c) see what the school environment is when it comes to gossip. If she's 25 and a new teacher she may not have experience yet dealing with a gossip-y PTA, judgmental colleagues, etc."
"It's normal stuff that happens in a lot of fields and doesn't necessarily have to be a deal breaker on dating altogether, but it may influence how fast or slow you want to become public or share with your neighbors."
"I had a fairly young/new colleague about 25 do some serious damage to her reputation at my last company because she got romantically involved with a coworker. It's definitely a 'proceed with caution' scenario."
"As for the age gap... 'there's no normal life, just life.'" - kelli-leigh-o
"Legitimately the issue is that the 8 yo simply has a relationship with the teacher so it's more likely that he would get attached to her as a mother figure. And if it doesn't work out, it would be hard on him."
"But it seems like the OP would be aware of that and would try to keep things separate until they potentially got more serious."
"I strongly believe that young children should be distanced from their single parents romantic lives simply because my own divorced parents didn't do it and it was really hard on me and my sister. But I really do think the OP is aware of that."
"NTA" - melodypowers
Others figured she had more issues with the age difference and simply mentioned crushes first.
"Notice how she gave that nonsense explanation of the son possibly getting a crush on the teacher and harped on that for a while before going oh by the way you also shouldn't be dating women that much younger than you? Yeah, my money says that the whole student-teacher thing doesn't bug her at all, and her actual issue was with him dating younger women." - Dan-D-Lyon
"She probably disapproved more of the age gap, and the fact that she is your kid's teacher and had to come up with a quick reason that wasn't outright calling you generally inappropriate. There needs to be more background info to condemn her, like what your history is of dating people a whole decade younger than you or something." - fullmoonpig
One Redditor offered a unique perspective on the issue with the age gap.
"If the age gap is the real issue with your sister then I think you both have to sit down, talk, and really listen."
"I'm in that age range and as mature as I'd like to think I am, in all honesty dating a widower in his mid thirties with a kid that'll be in his teens in the blink of an eye is a big deal and probably more than I could handle."
"Dating and having fun is one thing, but when feelings become real and attachments form it can be a lot to expect someone to become a de facto parent in their mid 20s. Even if you don't think that you are pressuring the person or don't expect them to do anything, in that situation they will feel like they have to step up as an obligation because 'they [should] have known what they were getting themselves into'."
"Mid 20s is mature, but all that this situation entails is a lot to handle. From a maturity standpoint I hate to admit it, but our brains are still on the tail end of fully developing."
"Closer to your age would probably be better suited to dealing with this, especially if you became a widower when your child was very young. There's a lot of grief that has to be hidden and avoided and selflessness that goes into being an active single parent will still dealing with your own grief."
"Idk if I'm making sense. If what I'm think is what's going on, I think neither of you are the A. You just need an honest dialogue. She might be worried about you and not know how to express it in a healthy way."
"Sorry for the rambling, and best of luck!" - DancingInAHotTub
It was surely frustrating to suddenly have his mother involved in the conversation, but hopefully the sister had the best intentions.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp