A person's fashion choices can be a statement.
But clothes don't have to send a message; they can just be seen as a necessity.
They can also be a war cry for self-expression and identity.
Who knew clothes could cause such battles?
Redditor sportsdad77 found himself in a personal dilemma regarding his daughter's choice of fashion and his wife's dislike for it, so he turned to the "Am I The A**Hole" (AITAH) subreddit for feedback.
Similar to AITA, the AITAH subReddit allows posters to ask for advice and post about ending relationships—both things that are banned on AITA. However, there are no required voting acronyms—only suggested ones—and no official final judgment declared.
He asked:
"AITAH for telling my daughter that she doesn’t have to wear a dress for my wife’s sake?"
The original poster (OP) explained:
"My (42 M[ale]) wife (41 F[emale]) and I have two daughters (13 F) - (11 F)."
"I have no idea what happened with our gene pool, but both of my daughters ended up wild as hell."
"They’re not truly happy unless they’re wrestling each other in the backyard, or throwing themselves off of high objects, or playing on their soccer team."
"Even now, they’re pretty much just non-stop energy."
"We always assumed that they were just tomboys and they’d grow out of it, but they’re getting to the age where that would start to be the case, and neither has shown any sign of slowing down or taking interest in more 'feminine' things."
"I’m fine with that."
"They are who they are, and honestly, it’s been pretty cool."
"They share a good chunk of my interests, and they still want to do everything with me."
"I know it’s been hard on my wife, though."
"She always thought they’d be her best friends when they got older, but they share almost no interests with her."
"They still love her so much, though, and they try to include her in their activities all the time."
"Recently, we got the news that there’s a dance coming up at my 13-year-old’s school."
"She’s decided that she wants to actually go to this one with her friends, but she just wants to wear a dress shirt and a tie."
"I thought it sounded fine."
"My wife, though, said that she needs to dress 'properly' for it since it’s semi-formal."
"Properly, for a little girl in our area, usually means a dress."
"Our daughter freaked out, said no."
"Second daughter freaked out on behalf of first daughter."
"And it turned into a whole thing of my wife going back and forth with them."
"At one point, she asked if my daughter could 'just give her this.'"
"Which honestly felt inappropriate to say to her."
"I finally intervened and said my daughter could wear whatever made her feel comfortable."
"My wife left."
"She waited until the girls were asleep to tell me how frustrated she was that I didn’t support her, and that we were supposed to present a united front."
"I told her I wasn’t going to force our kid to wear something for my wife’s sake, which pissed her off even more."
"Not sure if I went about things the right way, but I still feel pretty strongly that my daughter should be allowed to wear what she wants, and that if my wife is saying something stupid, I can point it out, like I would expect her to do for me."
The OP was left to wonder:
"So... AITAH?"
Some Redditors weighed in by using the AITA voting acronyms:
- NTA - Not The A**hole
- YTA - You're The A**hole
- NAH - No A**holes Here
- ESH - Everyone Sucks Here
Redditors decided the OP was NOT the A**hole here.
"NTA - a dress shirt and tie IS semi-formal, your daughter isn't showing up in a hoodie, and 'just give me this one thing' is not a reason to make a 13-year-old uncomfortable in her own body at a school dance." ~ BrainttS
"Exactly. If the daughter wanted to go in jeans and a t-shirt and a hoodie, the parents would be correct to step in and say no."
"A dress code applies and should be followed."
"How a 13-year-old follows it is up to them, whether it’s a dress or pants."
"I would probably even give the mom a pass if she didn’t argue about the pants and suggested (but not enforced) more feminine but dress code appropriate shirts as potential alternatives to a plain button up and tie."
"Simply because the 13 might be thinking she can dress girly in a dress or dress in pants like the guys and not be aware of a non-girly yet more traditionally feminine middle ground they could consider." ~ Ok-Raspberry7884
"Katherine Hepburn made pantsuits fashionable for women nearly a century ago."
"Girls' dress slacks can be feminine and are easy to find."
"Or, there are more tailored slacks with less masculine shirts... I wonder if OP took her shopping and had an employee help picking things out, if Daughter would be willing to consider a wider variety of things."
"Dad seems safer in this situation, and Daughter can't disappoint Mom in the dressing room or feel pressured (and then dig in her heels as a reflex/punishment to Mom)."
"Mom is seriously in the wrong here, and I say this as a girly-girl raised by a woman who hates dresses."
"I understand the dynamic. NTA." ~ NotEasilyConfused
"NTA!! I was just like your daughter."
"In fact, I had an almost identical fight at 13 years old with my mom."
"Now, in my 40’s, I am well aware of the fact that I was never the daughter my mom actually wanted."
"Guess how good of a relationship we have?"
"Yeah, not great."
"And she still does not understand why we are not best friends like her friends and their daughters."
"Best friends like each other."
"And accept one another."
"You and your wife should be a united front, but asking your kids to change who they are when they are not doing anything bad is not the side to pick."
"Your girls are old enough to feel the disappointment."
"And having an adult be disappointed in you for just existing as who you are is a sure way to ruin the relationship." ~ Educational-Fan1267
"Oh, do I feel this!"
"And I hate that we had similar experiences."
"My 'issue' wasn’t that I wasn’t girly, it’s that I am the weirdo - the artsy one, the untraditional one."
"Mind you, I have a husband, house, kid, corporate job (in a creative field), so I’m really not that much of a freak, but I’m just outside the box enough that she doesn’t know what to do with me."
"And then wonders why we don’t have the relationship my best friend and her mom have. "
"OP, you may want to show your wife some of these before she does further damage." ~ ShinyPennyRvnclw
"NTA. As others have said, your wife really screwed up here."
"It is your daughter's dance, not your wife's."
"It almost felt like mom was trying to live vicariously through the kid."
"Big ick."
"Really myopic too — if mom had set her own baggage aside, she could have encouraged the girl to explore fashion from that side."
"There are various ways to tackle dress shirt and tie: solid color slacks and tie (black) paired with a patterned shirt has a lot of potential."
"Mom would have had a chance to go shopping with her daughter for that, maybe taken her to a tailor to get the outfit polished."
"Topped it off with accessories like a good belt and shoes/boots, maybe even some earrings, rings if the girl was up for it."
"It was an opportunity for your wife to be actually creative and learn how to adapt style to your daughters' preferences."
"Now, though, mom might have further put the kids off exploring fashion or dances at all."
"Truly sad." ~ MortimerShade
"NTA. It is not on your daughters to fill these kinds of expectations for their mother."
"They are their own people with their own interests, and she needs to accept them for who they are."
"They are both at the age where they are going to start pushing for their own autonomy, and it is for the parents to respect them as individuals and guide, but not dictate the process."
"Your wife may have had dreams about how things would be, but she does not have the right to try to force those dreams to be reality." ~ First_Pay702
"NTA. No, you do not force your daughter to dress up because YOU WANT it."
"Just give her this? No."
"I'm sorry she didn't get the perfect fantasy she made up about being a mom, but she has to see her daughters for the human beings they are, and if your daughter wants a dress shirt and pants, that is what she should wear."
"Maybe look into therapy for your wife to help navigate not forcing her 'expectations' like this, or it's just going to get worse as they get older." ~ angel9_writes
"NTA. That’s just old sexist bullsh*t." She can wear whatever she wants!"
"And if you two won’t stand proudly beside her, then let your wife know her love is conditional on a fu*king dress." ~ pearlthewhale24
"NTA and your wife need to work this out in therapy."
"They may never be her best friends."
"My mom and I are nothing alike."
"I love the sh*t out of her, but she is not my best friend."
"I think it makes her a little sad, but it’s reality. "
"Your wife needs to accept reality."
"This could even be a thing where your daughter just isn’t comfortable moving into dresses yet."
"She doesn’t have to be. But maybe ask if she wants to look at any dresses at all, just that it’s also okay to wear a suit if she wants to." ~ Trepenwitz
Reddit is very proudly with you, OP.
They appreciate you wanting your daughter to be who she is.
A child can't be somebody they aren't to make their parents feel better.
Your wife has a lot of soul-searching to do.
Good Luck.
Woman Asks If It's Wrong To Hold Grudge After Mom Told Her When She 8 Years Old That She Wished She'd Aborted Her
While some people view having and raising children as the greatest blessing, some parents hold their children's existence against them for their entire lives.
And when they feel that way about their children, they're unfortunately typically pretty honest about it, cringed the members of the "Am I Overreacting?" (AIO) subReddit.
Redditor heavelymango knew from the time she was young that her mother did not really like her and significantly favored her sister.
But when her mother told her at the age of eight that she wished she had aborted her, the Original Poster (OP) held on to that grudge for years after the fact.
She asked the sub:
The OP had a grudge against her mother.
"I (22 Female) have been holding onto a grudge due to something my mom told me when I was roughly eight or nine years old."
"Growing up, I was a rebellious kid and always felt as if my mom favored my older sister. My sister would always get whatever she wanted."
"I know she was born with Down syndrome and always needed more attention and care, but if my sister wanted my tablet, for example, she would have it for the whole day while mine was limited to 30 minutes so she could have it."
"As a kid, I lashed out more because of this. She could take all of my things, but I could never use hers."
During a heated moment, the OP's mother said something unforgivable.
"Eventually, this led to an argument with my mom. I don't recall the whole thing, but it was related to my sister and how I felt my mom didn't care about me or give me the same amount of attention."
"The fight got heated, and I probably told my mom that I hated my sister and her."
"I remember she said back, 'I never wanted you from the start. I knew I should've aborted you when I had the chance.'"
" I didn't know what aborted meant at the time, and I remember I looked it up, and it made me cry. I never forgot it, and it lingers in my mind whenever I am home."
The OP's mother pressured her to "let it go" and move on.
"Even growing up, I still brought it up, and she would get mad, saying I need to let it go and how I'm stubborn for not just forgetting what she said."
"There was even a time in high school when she took me to a therapist, and she complained about how I never dropped what she said."
"She says I need to move on from it because it has affected my relationship with her, and she wants to fix it."
"I know I'm older now and it was so long ago, but it still hurts, and I feel like it's made me not want to have her in my life in the future, and I have told this to her."
"How I don't want her in my life once I move out, get married, or have my own kids."
Fellow Redditors weighed in:
Some reassured the OP that this sounded like a core memory more than a grudge.
"The axe forgets. The tree remembers."
"It sounds less like you're holding a grudge and more that this is a formative, core memory for you."
"It won't stop being a core memory (unless maybe with the help of a lot of therapy). Has your mom ever apologized for saying that? Because you don't have to forget to forgive, but if she's not remorseful for saying that terrible thing to her young child (not just remorseful that you remember it), then she probably needs therapy (or is a narcissist/sociopath/similar)."
"You are certainly not obligated to 'get over it.'" - Hot-Can3615
"This is not a 'grudge'; it is pain that is still felt to such a degree. If she said it, then she was thinking it. She'll probably never apologize, but that doesn't mean your pain is or was invalid." - Fast_Register_9480
"NOR. This kind of thing needs a real apology. Like she needs to acknowledge the damage and genuinely care about it. Brushing it off won’t make it go away." - TentacleWolverine
"NOR. Did she really want to fix things? She basically just told you to get over it from the start instead of giving you a sincere apology."
"That isn't working on anything. She wants you to get over it so she can pretend that she never said it, so she doesn't have to feel bad about what she did. It doesn't sound like she cares much about how you feel."
"She just doesn't want to deal with it. For that reason, I would still have issues with what she said." - Chemical-Ad6809
"If your relationship with your mother is being affected by the actions of your mother, your mother is responsible for fixing it."
"You should know you probably aren't ever going to get closure, but you don't have to swallow it down. It helps to be the person you needed when you were younger out loud to yourself, but especially to others."
"For example: My name is Liz, and my mom told me to go ahead and do it already and save us all the heartache when I finally had the courage to tell her about how much I've been struggling with self-harm and suicidal ideation. I'm never going to forgive her for that, and we have never been close as a result of her actions."
"You aren't holding onto a grudge; you have a core memory of your mother distilling her feelings into a world-shattering sentence."
"You did not have a secure attachment before and can't have one now because of the deep trauma. You do not apologize for being stabbed."
"Find another therapist. I mean it. Someone who cares about your well-being wouldn't force you to apologize for being verbally abused as a child. I'm 29 now, and I lived through it. I still struggle with suicidal ideation daily, but once I stopped relying on my mom and unstable sources for support, my life got better immediately."
"You want things for comfort and familiarity. Don't let your mom or your therapist gaslight you into crossing a boundary."
"It might help to ask for a written five-part apology from your mom. 1. Acknowledge what you did 2. Say why it was wrong 3. Promise not to do it again 4. Ask how to make amends. 5. Share your feelings at this time if there's anything you'd like to say."
"My mom can be a good person and a bad mom and role model. Being in your own company is so much better than poor company." - PotLuckyPodcast
Others hoped the OP would go no contact with her mother sooner rather than later.
"NOR. It’s emotional abuse. And you do not owe her closeness after that, especially as she refuses to be accountable for that and try to make it up to you."
"She knows you have her number, and she can’t forgive you for knowing what a colloidal b***h she is."
"It’s unlikely that will change; it will at least be turned back on you with her the victim."
"Stop expecting her to apologize. If she doesn’t pay your bills, ghost her." - SnooCheesecakes2723
"My mom said something similar. My brother and I were adopted, and when I was a teen, in front of a church lady, she said, 'We didn't even really want you, but the people didn't want to split y'all up, so we just took you, too.'"
"Me and the church lady were shook. When I say my falbbers were ghasted. Like huh? She didn't remember saying that when I brought it up years after the fact."
"I also got grounded two times for two separate nine weeks (for C's on my report card) and a three and a half to four months (for smoking at 16 and getting caught because she liked to just pop up out of nowhere), and we just had a talk about that, and she didn't even remember."
"She said, 'No, I didn't. I never grounded you for that long,' and when I gave my rebuttal, she said, 'Well, if I did, it definitely wasn't for no nine weeks or months,' and this started because she was praising me for reading so much and liking books. I said, 'Well, when you were grounded like me, that's all I could do (no TV, no friends outside of school, no music, nothing but my room and books)."
"There's a reason I only call or answer her calls once or twice every few weeks. And I only call to get food, really..." - ManicalMoe
"‘Fine, I'm sorry’ is not an apology."
"Whilst I’m sure it was said in anger, most things said in anger have a grain of truth. There are also some things that no half-decent parent ever says to their children, no matter how angry they are, and this is one of them! It also sounds like she has made repeated similar comments of not wanting you as her child."
"I understand her eldest had a disability, but this is no excuse for neglecting and emotionally abusing her younger child. Lots of families deal with a child with additional needs whilst still managing to prioritise their other kids. Children with Down syndrome are capable of understanding ‘that’s your sister's, not yours; give it back’ !! It sounds like your mum has mental health issues?"
"Do you have a present father or other family you can turn to?"
"Protect your peace. Your mum has hurt you time and time again, honestly, for no real gain other than momentarily satisfying her anger. You owe this woman nothing." - Background_Term9810
"I went through something similar. When I was a little girl, my mother used to make comments that implied she didn't want me, though it was never that explicit. 'I only had you because your brother wanted a sister,' and 'My figure never recovered after you; after your brother, it did.'"
"Each comment stayed with me, but I never addressed it with her. I tried to move on and leave it in the past. She did a lot of horrible things throughout my life, but her behavior was always ignored because that's the precedent my dad set, where she can do essentially whatever she wants."
"A few months ago, she came to see me because I was desperate for help and sick. Instead of helping, she made my life so much worse. I won't go into details. At one point, I could no longer keep it inside, and I told her that she is a narcissist, to which she responded with, 'It would have been better if I had never had you.'"
"In some ways, it felt really good to hear her come out and say it. It felt good to hear the truth I've always known."
"I don't know what you should do, but I've chosen to not forgive."
"Every time I forgave, I just let her know that she can get away with whatever horrible things she had done. Her apologies were never real apologies. She always found ways to blame me or others for whatever she had done."
"And I'm truly just done with it. As sad as it is to not have a mom, it's sadder to pretend that you have one when in reality you don't... quite the opposite, if anything." - Neos_Mom
"So, OP, what will hurt more: keeping her and the grudge in your life or making a break and going low or no contact with her?"
"Frankly, we've no idea of what she might have been dealing with at the time, but regardless, what she said was said only to cause pain and suffering. 'Sorry' doesn't magic that intent away."
"Me, I think spending time alone or with friends or in therapy away from her might be what you need here. You might come to some sort of acceptance, but if this is something that's just going to keep coming between you, then stop trying to have that relationship." - Tal_Tos_72
After the OP received feedback, she shared a few clarifications from her original post.
"I wanted to clear some things up, take accountability where it's due, and provide some much-needed context from many people commenting the same questions."
"I want to be completely honest. We had many arguments, and I was a rebellious kid. I acted out and argued with my mom."
"I don't want to give off the impression that I was an entirely innocent kid who never did anything wrong and my mom just snapped out of nowhere. We both said hateful and hurtful things to each other during our fights."
"Growing up, the only way she would accept an apology was if I got on my knees and begged her for forgiveness. If I ever asked her to apologize to me, she would say, 'I have nothing to apologize for; you should be the one begging for my forgiveness.'"
The OP had a lot of physical memories, too.
"Things also would turn into physical arguments, not just verbal ones."
"There were times when she would get so angry she would get physical. Like yanking me by my hair, twisting my arms, or throwing things at me (like remotes, a bug spray can, or a radio)."
"When she yanked my hair, I would fight back just to get her to let me go, and she would scream that I was trying to kill her and she would get me arrested. When she twisted my arm, and I begged her to stop because it felt like it was going to break, she would say she hoped it did."
"When she threw objects at me, she would say she wished they would hit my face."
"I remember in middle school, during an argument, she said she wished she could break my face and that she hated it because I look like my dad. I won’t lie, whenever she said things like that, I would say nasty comments about how she chose to have him put us in her."
While the OP wasn't financially ready to move out yet, she hoped to as soon as possible.
"Why haven't I moved out yet? The main reason I haven't been able to move out is financial."
"I wasn't making enough to support myself without worrying about whether I’d end up having to crawl back home."
"Thankfully, I have recently found a better-paying job. My plan is to move out between mid-to-late October, or early November at the latest."
"The only reason I can't leave this exact second is because I have a few legal/administrative things to get cleared up so I’m completely untied from my mom, which will take a few weeks."
The OP also had proof that her mother liked her sister better.
"Has my mom ever admitted to favoring my sister? Yes."
"In arguments, she has explicitly told me that she doesn't see me as her legitimate daughter, and that she adored my sister more and forever will. She has also called me a 'monster,' told me there is a certain type of evil inside of me, and said she was afraid I would be just like my dad and try to harm them."
"She would even tell me that she was telling family and friends these things about me, but then later claim she 'just said it in the moment' and wouldn't be crazy enough to actually tell people that."
"Because I was so confused growing up and didn't know if she was lying or telling the truth, I started avoiding our family when they came over."
"Naturally, that just made things worse because she would get mad at me for avoiding them (even now as an adult), completely ignoring the fact that she was the one who lied about what she told them."
Unfortunately, the OP didn't have support from her father.
"What about my dad? My dad is not in my life."
"He was around sporadically, but never as a stable parent. My parents separated before I was born and divorced when I was two or three."
"Growing up, it was just constant back-and-forth toxicity, with him telling me how toxic my mother was, and her telling me the same about him."
"He would mostly only come over to see my sister, and often used me to care for her if he wanted to take her out to eat. Ultimately, my dad didn't care about anyone else other than my sister (and his drugs)."
"I hope this can clear some questions on the original post. I know I didn't provide many details as I originally should have. I honestly didn't want to post something too long, and I honestly did not expect it to be noticed."
"Thank you all for taking time to talk to me and share your thoughts."
The subReddit fully sided with the OP, pointing out that no matter how heated the moment was, it would never excuse the terrible things the OP's mother had said to her.
If the OP's mother really wanted a relationship with her, she'd drop the defensiveness and demands, offer a genuine apology, and work hard to be better for both of her children.
That takes a very rare kind of person to pull off, and it didn't sound like the OP's mother had that in her.
If you or someone you know is struggling, you can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 988.
To find help outside the United States, the International Association for Suicide Prevention has resources available at https://findahelpline.com/i/iasp